Email To The Editor
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
--------------------------------------------Editor,The actions of the mother in Texas who crushed the skulls of her own sons is an unspeakable horror by any standards. A horror that no one denies, and is condemned by all.When a person commits such an act of madness, it is so clear and easy to see the sheer insanity. The depth of mental sickness is undeniable and no one in their right mind would even think of defending such actions.Yet, this is exactly what the bible and the god of the bible proclaim, teach, and command. An entire nation was commanded by a deviate "god" to do exactly what this woman did. This woman followed exactly what the bible teaches, proclaims and commanded. And the deviate god of the bible even commanded such murder to be carried out on a national scale. The god of the bible absolutely, undeniably commanded mass genocide on a scale far greater than nazi Germany attempted. For all of the unspeakable evil that nazi Germany was guilty of, ancient Israel was even worse -- much worse.This woman did exactly what was commanded by an insane god of the bible. Yet, many still "worship" this madness and insanity and make excuses for such insanity by claiming that insanity commanded by the bible is somehow "righteous"!!!The bible commanded parents to report their children to the elders who then ordered the children to be stoned to death. And according to the bible, the accusers (which in this case would be the parents), always threw the first stones.If this woman had taken her children before the elders and proclaimed her children as "incorrigible" (whatever that meant). The murders of her children would have been "legal" and sanctioned by the god of the bible himself. And according to the bible, there is no age limit, nor is there so much as a remote definition of "incorrigible." All the parents had to do was utter the word, and the children were dead.An insane woman committed an act of sheer madness that is both approved and commanded in the bible by an equally insane god. The madness and insanity of the bible are crystal clear when a person actually acts out and "obeys" the commands of the bible.When we actually see someone do what the bible commanded, the madness is unmistakable. Yet the god of this insanity is held blameless and proclaimed to be "worthy of worship."When will we ever wake up to reality....Religion is the greatest hoax in history.JimVThis is but one tiny example of an insane book that is saturated with insane commands and madness.
Yes, madness it it, Jim.
For those unfamiliar with this case, see here: http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/29/children.slain/
"You will hear that she was a sick person on a quest to be closer to her Lord," Files said. "The only explanation which any of the witnesses can offer for her conduct ... is that Deanna Laney was legally insane."
Files said Laney believed that God had told her the world was going to end and "she had to get her house in order," which included killing her children."
The question I wonder is, when Flurry et al announce the "end of the world", and pass out the grape kool-aid.... will their followers resist....?
Where was god as these young boys lay bleeding and screaming?
Subject: Re : John B's article on meeting HWA
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:09:04 +1000
A note to John B. that HWA visited Melbourne, Australia once in about 1981
I was in exit-mode (i.e. I was attending fortnightly instead of weekly; and
I was still tithing, but most of it went to the Bible Society).
On the day of the Poobah-General's visit everything went wrong and I
arrived about 15 minutes late, at a venue the WCG had hired for the
purpose. As I had got there by public transport, I didn't have to park and
go in the back doors. I went in via a very grand looking entrance right at
Something was wrong! There was silence. No communal droning of Dwight's
dirges. No loud-speaker enhanced ranting. What had happened? Had they all
fled to Petra?
Then I stepped onto a plush red carpet (hired for the occasion).
And walked down a guard-of-honor of a dozen glaring senior ministers.
I had managed to arrive just before the Grate Man (spelling intended, to
remind of hell-fire).
So I made the most of the opportunity and found a seat, purposefully
walking across the front, past the ministers' families, the deacons, and
I'm sure none of them remember it, but I sure do!
IT Governance - Projects
Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development
Level 9, 55 Collins St
Melbourne VIC 3000
I am trying to find info on the church of HWA II (the
sequel), PCG. They are doing the same thing the WCG
did, which is use the location and times of their
church services as a means to control the people
inside and out.
I am putting together a website which will simply list
the times and locations of PCG services. So far I
have but a trickkle of info, and strongly desire more.
If you know of any of the this info, or know of
someone who has it, please e-mail me at email@example.com
with the subject line "PCG Info".
Flurry doesn't want the world (especially the ones
being indoctrinated) to know this information.
Imagine what would happen if one of these "immature in
the faith" were to visit a PCG service on their own.
They would find a rather unwelcoming group.
publish anything from this message
I hadn't known they (or any of the splitoffs) were that secretive about their meeting times and location.
Seems counter-productive in one sense, but for security reasons I can see why that may be so.
Credit where credit is due?
It is in the interests of fairness that I write this. I have made clear in
the past that I consider Armstrongism (and, indeed, to a lesser extent -
religion) to be dangerous, and I have wholeheartedly participated in the
debunking of it that has taken place here. I do sincerely believe that the
world would be better off if Herbert Armstrong had never been born, and it is
indeed much better off now that he has been dead for near 20 years now. Wow.
For someone who was supposed not die before the "end of the world" comes,
he's been dead an awful long time now.
But, even the worst of circumstances can have a little good to be taken from
The WCG, in its strictly patriarchal and hierarchical teachings, certainly did
open the door to a great deal of abuse, and tended to enable a lot of abuse
that would not have been tolerated in any other circumstances. From my own
experience and the other stories that I have heard here, most of the abuse
seems to have come from the fathers. The organization did allow men to get
away with a lot of things that they would not have otherwise been able to get
away with. This is not in dispute, as I was a direct victim of a this. And
in some circumstances, the consequences were tragic, because in those
circumstances, the limits of acceptable behavior were entirely removed.
But for all of the families that suffered incalculable abuse because of the
green-light that the WCG provided the father (and perhaps the mother), there
were a few families for which the WCG actually managed to enjoin the worst
kinds of abuse. I believe mine was one of them.
Yes, the WCG enabled many kinds of abuse in my case. But it was mostly
emotional. Other than some rather nasty spankings with different spanking
implements (wooden spoons, boards with holes in them, etc..), they mostly
kept their hands off. I think I can attribute this to the fear of eternal
retribution that the WCG instilled in them.
What would it have been like had that barrier been removed?
I think I would have actually been abused much worse. I think, in addition to
the severe emotional abuse, there would have been some elements of physical
abuse (beyond the spanking), and perhaps even some sexual abuse. Thankfully,
to the best of my knowledge, it was only limited to the emotional. Perhaps
the other elements were even shunted to the emotional.
I think I generally have the WCG to thank for that.
So, credit where credit is due. The abuse should never have happened in the
frist place. The WCG should never have happened in the first place. But as
it did, and as they did, perhaps I was lucky in that my parents and the WCG
found each other. That may be why I'm where I am today.
It was a match made in hell.
That which doesn't kill me, makes me stronger, and all that...I suppose....
4/04/04You can post this if you want or trash it. But please all I ask is that you read this. I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else into religion. All I'm asking is that you read what I've wrote to you and to consider it.
Knowing that you believe that there is no return of Messiah nor ever was one, then I'm assuming that you are an atheist. Just like there can't be light without darkness there can't be Christians without Atheists or believers of a higher power and non-believers. Do you think that it could be that God created us with the use of natural causes? Like let's say a "Big Bang" and/or evolution? Because please tell me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that the Holy Bible doesn't tell us how God created us and everything around us. Also something else Id like to talk about. You know Children don't like to listen to what their parents tell them to do. They want to do what they want to do and what they have their mind set on. Same goes with us and God. He is Our Father and he tells us what to do and what not to do. So what do a lot of us do? We don't believe in him because we don't want to believe in a higher power, a God that is higher and stronger than us, that created us and that tells us how to live our life. But in a way God isn't actually ordering us to do what he wants. He is merely asking us to do what he wants and telling us what he would like us to do and what he expects of us. Because he cannot mess with our free will. That is one power and probably the only power we have over God that he has given to us. He can lead us into good but can't make us do good. Ok back to the creation, are you with me when I say that I mean, if you have two alternatives, one of which gives life ultimate meaning and value, and provides hope for the human race, and the other means we're all worm poop when we die.why would you choose the latter unless you had some extremely persuasive arguments for it?
Please tell me you haven't spread your genes into our pool....
Its sad to hear about your suffering while in the W.C.G , one of many of us!Trust violated is difficult to come to terms with , but as painful as our experiences might have been, but in reality , Ive had to come to terms with the fact that no one put a gun to our head to join, but I agree, at the time , it was a very good marketing scheme.For many a year , it has been difficult for many to come to terms with how we were baited ,and we were! ,and for myself over the years, having to deal with my anger within to want to sort a few out , you know,? the old fashioned way ! The way I used to deal with people when they crossed me before my time in the WWCG.Many scars run deep, but we can't live in the past , the old saying goes "if I only knew then what I know now". But we didn't ,experience has taught us what we have come to know and understand .I recall back in the early 90s wanting to take them to court , believe me sir I'm no coward!! I've been known to run through a few brick walls in my time! but again, they never made me tithe , I chose!Did I feel used and abused ,you're damn , right I did , the local minister in Ross -on -Wye( 1994\5) here in Britain was a gent by the name of Peter Shenton , while all the shenanigans were going on behind the scenes ,you recall I'm sure, the time when changes were being made? ,having kicked out a few members for not towing the party line , two of which were my inlaws ,promised he would never leave, just to find out some weeks later he took the majority of the congregation to the UCG , without telling a soul outside the scheme, the lies and politics to keep their jobs , in mans language , ,the men didn't have a pair of balls amongst them , I'm talking about the ministry, they would have been better off walking around in skirts! they would have sold there own gran to keep their jobs.Thats the tip of the iceburg , there's much more to talk about , but in reality people are going to do what they are going to do , I'm saddened to hear about many other cases of abuse and mistrust , I have experienced it .In conclusion , it doesn't pay to hate , life is short , while we hate we forget to live , if I didn't choose to think like that , many ministers would have physically paid the price for the pain and mistrust they caused me!I hope sir you also can bury your painful past ,you're not on your own , that's for sure ,regardsGraham RFeel free to do with this what you will!Thanks for the note, Graham R.You're right -- it doesn't pay to hate. It doesn't pay to forget either, or sit idly by and watch more people get suckered by religious conmen, be they the WCG+ stripe or any other.Be wellEditor
Editor,On your web site you have an article entitled The Traffic Stop that has a Herbert W. Tithington being arrested and convicted for the fourth time on a DUI. Did this really happen or was this just fiction? If HWA really was convicted of DUI or any other legal offense, then, would you feel free to share that with me as well as the documentation for such?Jamie
Uh... Do I REALLY need to answer this for ya?
5/14/04Saw a damn good documentary on the History Channel about Joshua and the "conquest" of Cannan.It seems that the reason the Bable is so accurate in the description of the charred ruins and destruction of Jerico, and other cities, is actually quite simple and easily explained. And there is no miracle involved whatsoever. All that's involved is good old fashion human politics and liars.Jerico was destroyed a bare minimum of 200 years before Joshua came along. And this is a provable, documented, historical fact. In other words, it is a documented, historical fact that the bible is a provable liar.The city of Ai was even a bigger lie. Ai had been destroyed over "one thousand" years before Joshua. Probably 1200 years. Again, this is a historical, proven fact and again, the Bible is a provable liar.There was no conquest of Cannan by the Israelites. It's all another fantasy and just another example of biblical vomit. The so-called conquest of Cannan by the Israelites is pure fabrication and it never happened.It is also a historic, documented fact that no one knows exactly where the Israelites really came from. It is also known that the customs, mannerisms, laws, actions, and appearance of the Jews was so similar to the Arabs that the Israelites were readily accepted as "family" and they could move about at will throughout the middle east without anyone knowing who they were. At least, not by sight.It is a historical, documented fact -- The Jews are Arabs.The Jews and Arabs both acknowledge Abraham as their common father, and both acknowledge the existence of the other as children of Abraham. In other words, the Jews acknowledge Arabs as children of Abraham, and the Arabs acknowledge Jews as children of Abraham. And both acknowledge the same Abraham as their own father.The Jews are Arabs that deny their own heritage and created fabrications and fantasies about their own history.Although it cannot be proven, there is solid, solid, solid evidence that the Jews never came back because they never "went" anywhere. It is most likely that the Jews simply segregated themselves from their Arab brothers and fabricated a history that never existed. The Jews simply "claimed" that they were not Arabs. They simply "claimed" the old testament history as true. And in time, the Jews grew into a segregated nation along with their own fabricated history.But old testament biblical history is known and proven to be a nest of lies and fabrications. The conquest of Cannan did not happen.The gigantic problem facing true historians is the bottomless pit of nested lies and historical fabrications about the Jews history and middle east history. So much knowledge has been lost and destroyed.But even though the Jews have segregated themselves from their Arab brothers for many centuries, modern genetic testing "proves" just how closely related the middle east Jews are to their Arab brothers. And it is extremely interesting that the European Jews are not related to Arabs and they are vastly different in actions and appearance from the middle east Jews (Sorry folks, that is a proven fact, not opinion.)The History channel and the Discovery channel have "many" documentaries (and have had for years) that totally destroy the fabricated fantasies and lies of the old testament.The Bible is a proven LiarReligion is the greatest hoax in historyJimV
I just want to say that I applaud your works here. I have just taken a cursory glance at your site and I am pleased to find a place where the tragedy of some of the christian followers is exposed. Bravo, and more power to you.
Kevin HThank you, Kevin.Editor
It's a shame that the WCG has turned people off from God altogether.
I attended Herbie's cult from 1991 to around 1996 or so. I met my husband there, in fact. We married in 1993 and are still married--and both of us have written off the WCG. Our son was born AFTER we left that hell-hole--he never had to listen to them spew their garbage! I now attend a KJV Bible-believing, independent fundamentalist Baptist church.
Here's what you'll find interesting: The church I attend now and WCG are VERY different. The WCG uses whatever Bible version (or perversion--yeah I'm KJV-only!) supports their doctrine. Cafeteria "Christianity" if you will. I willingly give offerings to this Baptist church--but the thing is, we are not made to feel guilty about not giving more. It's an independent church...our tithes and offerings are used to maintain the building and support some missionaries. They are not used to make our pastor rich.
Until I visited your Web site I never knew Pope Herbert was such a perv. I knew he was a heretic...after I'd left and starting reading my King James Bible for myself and visited a few Web sites! But somehow, his being a perv doesn't suprise me. I'd heard only whispered rumors about GTA.
WCG's current teachings are still pretty much un-Biblical. It's a shame that people actually think that cult is Christian. And don't get me started on the cliques! Ugh--I thought I was in high school again! I attended during the reigns of Pope Joe I and Pope Joe II. (Hey--they act like they're Christ on Earth...kinda like that old dude in Rome!)
Please don't bash Christians. The important thing is that there are those of us who escaped the WCG's clutches and found REAL Bible-believing churches! I mean, it's one thing to expose the WCG for the fraud it is.
Despite the Bible-bashing, I have found this site VERY informative. Please don't think that all who profess Christianity are like those clowns in Pasadena. There's professing it--then there's living it.
I don't particularly want to bash Christians. At least the ones who just go about their business and leave others alone.
But the problem is folks who want to use their particular little Black Book and convince others, at the point of their sword, that THEY should "believe" their drivel.
Or those who fly airplanes into buildings. Or use fear to extort money from Good People.
Christian, Muslim, whoever. That little Black Book has been the motivation and justification for a lot of pain and suffering through the ages, A. and it deserves to be bashed, just as any other Book of Myths when it's the justification behind criminality.
Again, it's not just about the WCG+: it's about CultThink. It's about religion. It's about rabidly dogmatic Republicans or Democrats or Pittsburgh Steelers fans, or vegetarians, or militant gays, or anyone anywhere who wants to use force or fear to lever their particular brand of Tooth Fairy-style nonsense on otherwise decent folks.
I bet you don't "believe" in Zeus, do you?
Ask yourself "Why not?"
We coudn't watch worldly stuff (or were sneered at if we did).Those from WCG may want to watch The Omen- it's a trilogy- and is a good study piece for x-world-widers......Reason; it outlines much of the belief as proposed by WCG, such as the person of the beast, a political figure....and underhanded tactics for taking over the world...The MAIN POINT is that this movie (1st one) started in about the late 70's I think, or maybe early 80's......this info was available to many, ie just watch the movie! (And no connection to HWA!)Where was the revelation? Others were saying the same!Of particular interest was the part about a priest in some obscure monastery- when they find him, his right arm and eye aint working anymore.....WCG quoted THE MAN OF SIN to be Tkatch, and therefore predicted his demise- see various articles via Frank Nelte etc- about the man of sin and the flock of slaughter etc.Those who may have followed such articles about 1995 were UTTERELY AMAZED that Frank Nelte could be spiritual enough to say that IN THE TRUE CHURCH OF COURSE all these problems were PREDICTED, via prophecy of course...The verse says something about "Woe to the shepherd...who forgets his sheep...his right eye and right arm shall be withered"....(No space for all the details etc) but this verse was applied to what was happening in WCG about 1995...it was therefore predicted by Nelte (and others) that Tkach would die and HIS right arm and eye would become withered....I FULLY ADMIT THAT I WAS TAKEN IN BY THIS- it was almost like magic!!!Later, I realised the folly of the biggest lie- the TRUE church....Actually, the verse quoted just means "LET his right arm be withered etc"...It is a GENERAL priciple of ANYONE who forgets his sheep...ie he might as well have his eye and arm withered, for his lack of stewardship!We were hoodwinked into believing this was SPECIFICALLY about JTkach....AND, we could have got it from the Omen...those who were involved in these "prophecies of the true church" flying around should be astounded how simple it is to show what these verses really mean !!!(I'm obviously not promoting the bible; just see how easy one can be fooled if you believe in the TRUE church)Regards
I thought that was a classic movie.
And, you know, strange things happen. Like this science fiction writer who invents a religion and....
Well, never mind....
-------------In a the space of a week I have heard twice the old saying thaton one held a gun to our heads in making us join the cult. I'mnot sure what the hell this is supposed to mean but in my mindit holds the cultmasters somehow not culpable.The latest chap to parrot this is one Graham R. in a recent letter.I suggest that he should read this paperand gain some much-needed understanding.Jim Baldwinjimbo@fmis.net
I couldn't agree more, Jim.
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 8:36 PM
Subject: Pastor General WCG
Thank you for providing the way to reach the Pastor General himself.
Though I so wish it was Herbert W. Armstrong I was contacting.
We all really miss him.
Perhaps the ministers can put in a prayer request for me.
Thank you, Sharon M____
Uh. I'm almost speechless.
You haven't read this website very closely have you?
Just to let you know -- I don't have any communications with the "Pastor General". And I am glad it's me and not HWA that you are contacting. If it were Herbie answering you? We would ALL have something new to discuss, wouldn't we?
And we don't really miss the old guy, to be honest. And perhaps, somewhere, there are some ministers who can put in a Good Word for you, for whatever reason you have requested, to whatever gawd that does that kind of thing. If your prayers get answered, let us know, ok?
Editor, scratching his head
Robert please send this letter to:Dear Editor....Just accidentally found your site today!!! I've been reading it for hrs. off and on now...after all these yrs. the healing, the struggle still must go on...Just sending a note for now about how wonderful the site is!!! Creative, and Love the humor...humor is very healing as you know and just plain fun!!...Love the bluntness too...I've cried at the suicide section, and laughed wonderfully at the graveyard site...The 'Tomorrow Never Came' and 'Dance Hall Daze' are wonderfully written and will pass on some of the stuff from here to help educate my roomie since he is studying to be a psychotherapist...Letters too...Some really good insights here and I will absorb them...Grew up in the worldwide church for fifteen yrs. before my mom decided another cult was REALLY the 'true church'...yeah, she 'got' religion pretty bad...Luckily my dad never did but he along with us kids suffered with it...He was just too nice and went along with things to try and keep the peace...but of course there wasn't much peace...just one of us kids ended up 'fundamentally religious' unfortunately...deluded, but at least she is happily married and didn't beat the kids...We were financially well off and so all us kids attended Imperial School....Yep, hell at church, hell at school and hell at home...boy, do I know how to daydream!!!...I was wondering if the 'Mark Flynn' mentioned on this site was one of the Flynn's I knew from Imperial School?...If memory serves me correctly one of them was named Mark...If he is then I guess he got a really good mind fuck and never 'saw the light'...I continue as you do...in any small way I can...to struggle to try and shed light on all the mind fucking that goes on in this world...sapping the joy and creative spirit from people's minds, bodies and souls...I am constantly wanting to live in the fullness of life....that wonderful state that eludes so many people and myself to often...because they are oppressed either by inner or outer forces in this world...or by both...That's the shame that needs to be changed...Thanks, For a Great site!!Lynn
Well, I always like a good word, so thank you, Lynn!
I don't know of Mark, and maybe some Good Reader will chime in and I'll be glad to pass the email along....
There are some pretty humorous writers around here. I always encourage that sort of thing....
6/05/04This is from an ex-Mormon site; article titled "Can I sue the church?""We must finally admit that we were fools, and the law was not intended to protect fools from their own stupidity."http://home.teleport.com/~packham/lawsuit.htm(I would add 'Thank God!' If you think the courts are overcrowded now!) Seriously, Packham does list abuses that are appropriate for lawsuits.Best, Guy H.
I would be the first to admit that seeking any legal remedy for cult "damages" is a lost cause. I just don't see it happenin'.
But I would take issue with you in that we/our parents were "fools". There were and is a lot of deliberate deception happening with Priests who lie and promise great things and prey on people's fears and hopes. They are criminals in my book.
I would think that the best remedy is to take back our individual freedoms, our thoughts, our lives, and damn the Priests who try to hold us hostage.
Some, maybe all of us, were fools once. Maybe. But if so, we are no more, by dangit.
Thanks for the link, Guy, and be well.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 11:17 PM
Subject: How come you don't mention....
How come you don't mention any of the prophetical, archaeological, or
scientifical proofs of the Bible on your site?
I'm sure you have heard that the Bible has predicted everything up to
this date with a 100% accuracy rate? What about the numerous archaelogical
findings that are parallel to what the Bible says. Such as the Ron Wyatt
discoveries on the bottom of the Red Sea. He found chariot wheels, spears
and skeletal remains all at the bottom-IN CORAL-so someone did not just dump
all that in there, its old. Scientifically, the Bible knew basic science way
before anyone else. For example:
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
You, as a former Christian I'm sure have heard all of this but how come
you don't put try to contradict these proofs. If I was trying to prove the
Bible wrong these would be the first three categories I would attempt to
disprove. Without proving these three categories wrong you have no case.
for your time,
My Proof of the Bible Website...
From: Editor at the PT <Editor@hwarmstrong.com>
Sent: Jun 7, 2004 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: How come you don't mention....
"scientifical proofs, huh?"
Thanks for your CultThink.
You can't even prove Jesus ever existed, and ya want me to believe all that?
-If you had ever given any honest response to the questions that I had put forward, I would have believed your sincerity. However, because your response was so childish, I understand that you have not learned anything in your past 25 years. Someone who is knowledgeable would have given a short rebuttle of the few points that I made. You reduced your wisdom to a cheap-shot by describing what I wrote as "CultThink." Your response is typically of someone who is confronted with facts but they do not have the answers. I am a Christian but I do not believe in blind faith. I believe in provable Bible prophecies and there is where Christianity and all other world religions part company.
My Proof of the Bible Website...
You reduce me to intellectual rubble with your wit, logic, and insight, sir. I simply cannot compete with you.
The reason I don't argue much with you fundie-folks is that you always use the Babble as proof of the Babble.
You aren't presenting anything new at all. Yall need to get more creative in getting me to answer you because frankly? Yall bore me.
The day YOU prove to the world, (not just me), that this Jesus existed at all.... Then ya got my attention.
In the meantime I remain your childish servant who hasn't learned anything over "my past 25 years."
Lastly, you said:
"I am a Christian but I do not believe in blind faith."
You ARE a Christian, and therefore you DO, by definition, believe in blind faith. Embrace that truth and feel good about yourself.
Have a great day!
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