The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 71)

(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)


12/25/02

I was explaining the other day to someone why I don't celebrate Christmas, and I decided to look up some stuff about the WCoG just for fun. then I found your site. let me give you some background on myself:

My mother had gone to WCoG ever since I could remember. I grew up in this fashion, and in this way: no holidays, no pork, all the basics. I can't say I ever really felt religious, but I did feel that God existed, and that at least warranted my going to a "church" of some kind. My mother was always and outcast in the WCoG. always. A single mother with no money to really offer, and a strange child like me who didn't get along with anyone? she was almost shunned. I remember always feeling uncomfortable and unpopular, and as if I wasn't allowed to speak to certain people. I never saw a cultish issue in our group, it never seemed dangerous or like we couldn't leave. It did, however, feel very very elitist.

When WCoG broke up, my mom drifted between the United CoG sect and I think Global CoG was the other name.  Mostly she went to united. I did too, up until I was about 15 or 16. There was a minister there, Larry Grieder, who was constantly an antagonist for me. I don't think he understood it, or even meant it like this, but he just got right on my nerves, I happen to like to dress a bit differently. I like a lot of black and dark colors. Mr. Grieder was convinced that I must have been depressed because of that, and that he could save me if only I would wear white and go to his youth events. Being in that tender teenage state, I was horrified and repulsed. I felt like just because I had a few black dresses, I wasn't good enough for my church, and that they wanted to change me. I stopped going, even though by this time I was convinced that God existed.

I am 20 now, and don't go to any church or claim any group. I still deeply believe in God, but I do feel so lost and unsure as what to think about region in general. The hate and the wars that have occurred because of it, they simply cannot be God's work. He has to be on the opposite spectrum of all this disaster, or he would not be God. But it was really refreshing to get a different point of view on the whole matter from your site, and even though I have just started to sift through it. I think I'll eventually read it all.

Thanks for your time!

KT


 It's true...my life, until age 14 was all Worldwide Church of God...sigh. I know *now* the err of my way (er, my parent's way)...but it doesn't negate the guilt and fear that the Church put in me for more than a decade.

So, here I am, 20 years later, still feeling guilt. Fuck HWA, fuck GTA--none of them know god...god is unknowable in the sense *they* mean her!

Sigh.

20 years later and I am still ranting...I guess I relate to your website. Rock on, my friend--keep it real.

Allan

p.s. Ooooo,. nice going on the email address...only the truely chosen or the truely jaded would figure all that out...  ;)

REPLY:

Alan,

Thanks for your message.

The mind-f**k the church did on the children was possibly one of the worst things it did. They tried so hard to keep the children in the church. They didn't care about what affect they would have on these kids; all they were interested in was the future membership ($$$ income $$$) of the church. They scared so many kids with their horror stories. It was scary enough for the adults let alone the kids. I remember vividly the very first Worldwide Church of God sermon I heard in the A. O. Smith Union Hall. All about the fall of the USA and the horrible fate of those who were not members in good standing in the church. Didn't want to ever be "lukewarm." Scared me to death. And I had my young children there too. Funny how it was considered a "sin" to go to a "Ghostbusters" movie but it was perfectly okay to rant about how God was going to have you killed horribly if you didn't belong to the right church. Of course, they got it all out of that "good book."

Yes, I do try to make it hard for people to send me email. Only those who really want to send something, good or bad, get the address, and then it is on my terms.

Regards,

Editor


Hey

Been a long-time reader, occasional contributor to your site. Got a couple questions for you.

(1) What do you know about John Kennedy, at one time pastor of the Pasadena West PM congregation, transferred in 92-93 timeframe to Maine? Any information would be good, but I'm specifically looking for the reason that someone that high-powered would be sent to a backwater like Maine.

(2) Perhaps more of a cultural issue than anything else, but do you have any idea of how many kids who grew up under the Worldwide Church of God eventually got into the Gothic subculture? I did while I was in college, and someone that I met at one point, some five years after being out of Worldwide Church of God, and had never met while I was in it, marked me instantly as a former Worldwide Church of God member, saying that he could tell from the music I was listening to and the way that I dressed.

(3) A song which might be interesting to some ex-members. It's called "Angry Neurotic Catholics," by a metal band from the 80's called Carnivore. It's a fairly profane song, lot of unpleasant things in it, so it's not for everyone, but ... Anyway, it might be interesting. I know it sums up a lot of the feelings that I grew up with: "your life is built on paranoia and guilt, so don't forget your valium tonight."

Thanks!

 Gabe

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:
 What do you know about John Kennedy

 REPLY:
 Sorry, but I don't know anything about him. Maybe a reader will have an answer for you.

 YOU WROTE:
 how many kids who grew up under the Worldwide Church of God eventually got into the Gothic subculture?

 REPLY:
 No idea.

 YOU WROTE:
 "your life is built on paranoia and guilt, so don't forget your valium tonight."

 REPLY:
 Sounds like we could all identify with those lyrics. That is how they wrung the money out of us. Religions mess with your mind. It gets so bad that people literally no longer think for themselves, which is exactly what the church wants. They are trapped in the extremely narrow little world of "Me-sinner, Jesus-savior, other information does not compute, does not compute, does not compute..."

Regards, Editor

REPLY:

Here's the rest of the lyrics to the song ... The rest of it is just as fitting:

"I'm suffering from depression
the anger turned within
what do I gain for all my pain
perhaps a seat in heaven?

Don't do what you want
do what you're taught is right
your life is built on paranoia and guilt
don't forget your valium tonight

The agony I must endure
my mind is painful and swells
the punishment for what I've done
is forever the pains of hell
how come what is natural
has to be a sin?
why would God give me this urge
if I cannot give in?
they say don't give up
that Jesus loves me

I went down into my basement
confused and depressed
put Black Sabbath on
razor blade in hand
a Wilkinson I think
ten slashes on each arm
my only wrongdoing
was being born human
and following my instincts

I never was happy
I never was sane
so I shall be extinct
the growing pool of crimson
at last I am pure
witness my sanguineous penance
I don't need anyone
my soul's been set free
death is total independence
 

stand up straight
stomach in
shoulders back
sound off
 

Angry Neurotic Catholics
It's a sin
Angry Neurotic Catholics


1/16/03

Dear Sir,

I read with great interest your encounter with the Armstrong Church and the devastating impact it had on your life and lives of your loved ones. I find it interesting that we both were born in 1943 and both of us graduated in 1961. My contact with the church was "mercifully shorter" than yours, 1969-1970.

I am in their debt to some degree though, for they stimulated me to study the Bible for myself and I had to know "was the Bible really God's word ?" From 1970 to the present, 2003, I have been studying biblical archaeology and now know that archaeology does NOT support the Bible being God's word. It CONTRADICTS the Bible. There was NO Exodus as portrayed in the Bible, there was NO conquest of the Promised Land as portrayed in the Book of Joshuaas revealed by biblical Archaeology.

I have created a website, www.bibleorigins.net  explaining how and why biblical archaeology reveals that the Bible IS NOT God's word and just where the Hebrews were getting their notions about God the yare re-interpreting and transforming ancient Mesopotamian myths. I am today, as a result of some 30 years of research in biblical archaeology, an Secular Humanist (Agnostic).

I invite you to peruse my site and if you feel it might be of interest and help to your readership, then you might want to make a link to it.

All the best, Walter

Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld, M.A. Ed.


Editor,

I grew up in the church, and of course walked out as soon as I moved out of my parents' house.

I went to the church where Gerald Flurry was the minister in Pasco Washington. He was such a jerk. Stopping his sermons to tell me and my friend to separate, go spit out our gum, etc. We had a congregation of about 200. When we'd walk into the Masonic temple early Sabbath mornings, my hair would stand up on my arms and the back of my neck. I always felt it was really wrong to be meeting in there.

Anyway, I was in Orr Minnesota the summer when that chick brought German Measles to camp, and since we were all not immunized, we had to stay for weeks after funding ran out for camp, and the staff and workers went home, and we were treated like dogs. We just sat there in the rain waiting for our name to be called over the loud speaker. It sucked.

I had yet another dream about it last night, so I got up this morning to find out if there was a place where former members had a forum. Because I agree, that no one else can understand what it was like. I am FOREVER saying, "In the religion I grew up in..." It is annoying even to me. I have found my own place in religion, and it is a strong Christian belief, but it was a long time coming. And it has NO base in Worldwide Church of God whatsoever.

I loved your page about knowing you grew up in the church. It is hilarious.

 Anyway, I was at camp for 2 years in a row, and I'd love to see if there is a place where former members have a message board or something.

My parents divorced when I was 4 because of the church, and I had a sucky childhood because of it, but I made it through, and hold pretty minor grudges toward the church as a whole, but personal grudges against people in the church for carrying out such stupid crap.

Keep it going, there are a lot of people who need this place for therapy. :c)

Sharnell


editor,

realising and blaming your situation is totally acceptable. What happened in the past is just that the past. Think of moving forward in your life and more onward. Listen what your experiences of the past are just that the past. whether or not you have been a victim of circumstances does not matter. Each day forward you will make a new journey and you will find those people that you find dear to you in your life.

If you notice I have not mentioned one thing about wwcg and I feel that i should not make any because if you look at religion on a whole you will find lots with tons of problems. Just believe in yourself as you mentioned that each day your thankful. Think of how you can make this world a better place. Think that religion is the reason we had 911 because of some religious fanatic beliefs. Look at what is happing around the world is from some form of religion. Please I dont condone any religion because I nor you have no right to pass any judgement.

Therefore move on and experience all that is good in your life and be grateful that you live in a society that allows the greatest freedom of speech and of course religion. Remember be thankful for what you are as a person and continue forward with this site. You offer so insightful information and at the same time continue to progress to another level.

Peace and cheers,

AngryFrank

REPLY:

Frank,

Thanks for your message. Be assured that I am completely happy and satisfied in my life. I am no longer in need of religious mumbo jumbo to give me "answers" because I realize that nobody has any answers to the mystery of life and death. Anyone who says that they do is either crazy or a con-man and ought to be in jail or a mental asylum. (I will give you that we do allow a certain amount of lunacy in our society since we do allow organized religion to be completely legal.)

I have to disagree with you though: I do have the right to pass judgment. I can think. I have a brain. I can decide what is right and what is wrong. I can judge and so can you. Nobody can take away that right but you can give it up. Its up to you. Those that give up the right to judge will be the slaves to those that want to control them.

I have moved on but I'm not going to leave my fellow human beings behind. I'm providing the information that they can use to free themselves from religious slavery. Its up to them to do with it what they want.

Regards,

Editor


I was searching the web for another topic, Patrick Henry's quote on Religion and H.W.Armstrong appeared. I had all but forgotten having seen a 1/2 program a few times when back in my hometown of Pittsburgh PA: Kathryn Kuhlman country

 I had seen Son and then father on TV. I am glad they were found out.

 I am glad you survived.

 I noted that you said you received threats of death from Christians. I am sure you know that there are many non-christians who think they are.

Thank you for your struggle.

sincerely,


A  BEAUTIFUL PRAYER  

 I asked God to take away my habit.
 God said, No.
 It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up.

I  asked God to make my handicapped child whole.
 God said, No.
 His spirit is whole, his body is only temporary

 I asked God to grant me patience.
 God said, No.
 Patience is a byproduct of tribulations;
 it isn't granted, it is learned.

 I asked God to give me happiness.
 God said, No.
 I give you blessings; Happiness is up to you.

 I asked God to spare me pain.
 God said, No.
 Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares
 and brings you closer to me.

 I asked God to make my spirit grow.
 God said, No.
 You must grow on your own! ,
 but I will prune you to make you fruitful.

 I asked God for all things that I might  enjoy life.
 God said, No.
 I will give you life, so that you may enjoy all things.

 I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as He loves me.
 God said...Ahhhh, finally you have the idea. 


 THIS DAY IS YOURS DON'T THROW IT AWAY
REPLY:

A BEAUTIFUL DELUSION
 
I asked God why people made excuses for Him
not answering their prayers
or helping them when they were in desperate need.
As always, He didn't answer.
This time there was no one to make excuses for Him.
 
THIS DAY IS YOURS, DON'T EXPECT A GOD TO DO ANYTHING FOR YOU.
YOU WON'T BE DISAPPOINTED.
YOU WON'T HAVE TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR HIS LACK OF INVOLVEMENT IN YOUR LIFE.

 Dear editor:

Thank you for allowing e-mails, as I have found it is healing just to write.

Armstrongism has wormed it's way into our family and has affected us for over 15 years.  My brother, mom, sister-in-law, myself and eventually, my dad attended back in the early 90's.   I didn't stay there long, being bible illiterate, I was sucked into the concept that the world was wrong because they were worshipping on the wrong day and not observing OT laws.

 One thing I didn't feel ever was "peace" and "love" for people outside the church.  I knew in my heart this was wrong.  I received literature from concerned friends and by the grace of God did not continue going there.  What I want to write about is how it has affected my mind even today.   

    The concept of trust is damaged. .   I found out I lost this part of me for others as well as my own judgement.  I'm still working on my self-esteem as it was damaged because of how your mind gets manipulated.

    The sad part,  my brother and his family stayed in Worldwide Church of God for over 10 years, broke off of few years ago when they found out maybe the whole world wasn't wrong and for a short time started going to a regular "christian church".  That only lasted for a short time as they could not let go of their  view of paganism in the world and have not wanted to talk about their experience at Worldwide Church of God.  Now, they are involved in a different church with  similar ways of thinking .  I can't even research their new church as you have to be a paid member to get into the website. 

    I am so sad.  I have aging parents who long so to have our family united as we are all christians now.  We, however, cannot discuss God with them (my brothers family) without an arguement.  They have told us we are being spoonfed lies.  I just long for them to be released from the bondage of viewing people as evil.  This goes so far away from Jesus' teachings. 

    What do we do?  I read some of your horror stories and am so saddened to hear that some people have turned completely away from God and the true faith.  What a waste.  This site has been healing to us as we have seen the similarities of damage in other families, not just our own. 

    I'm not sure who I"m talking to right now, but be assured that our God is the God of healing and love.   There is hope.  I have taken this awful experience as a lesson to learn the bible.  I can't get enough!  There are so many treasures revealed.  I am convicted to teach my children now and any other people who want to just learn the real truth.

    It would be helpful to direct some of this energy into insight as to how to get people out of this misery.  Things to say or not to say.  I believe everything happens in this life for a reason.....even being in this type of cult.    Now it's time to allow God to use this and make a miracle out of a "mess".  He can.

Thanks for the site, and for hearing me.

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:
 The concept of trust is damaged.

REPLY:
 Yes, but that is good because you never should have trusted other people without evidence that what they told you was true.

YOU WROTE:
 I found out I lost this part of me for others as well as my own judgement.

REPLY:
 You are not going to have anyone else, other than yourself, that you can trust in everything. You have to develop some kind of logical strategy whereby you can determine right and wrong, truth and lie. You should not be expected to accept anything without PROOF. That is the essential ingredient. Keep reading the PT and think for yourself. Question everything in your life. You should not be afraid to question the most "holy" things. If they are, indeed, holy, they will stand up to scrutiny. Don't settle for platitudes and catch phrases such as "God is working everything out for the good of mankind." Demand some proof for that statement. I have for years and NOBODY has given me any evidence for that. See my Acts of God page
.

YOU WROTE:
 It would be helpful to direct some of this energy into insight as to how to get people out of this misery.

REPLY:
 If people could free themselves from slavery to religions, they would find themselves much lower on the misery scale.

Good luck to you. Editor

REPLY:

Thank you for responding.  I don't want to sound disrespectful at all, but don't you see how satan worked in Worldwide Church of God cult to damage trust so ultimately it would damage our faith?

You say prove all things.  I say, where is faith?    Faith is :  belief which is not based on proof. 

Part of the brain that is scarred by misled teaching is ,

always viewing the negative about everything and everybody and trying to "prove" everyone wrong. 

Yes, I feel ANGRY at times toward Hubert Armstrong.  More than that, I'm frustrated with myself for  following man's interpretation of the bible instead of allowing the spirit to open MY mind to specific truths at the perfect timing --which I believe is determined by God.

Do you believe now in the "reality" of Jesus Christ?  Is He your personal saviour? 

The mind set of "bashing", for whatever reason, is not going to lead to anything but glorifying ourselves.  The main thing  in this life is giving the glory to God.

 All I was saying is can we, as "survivors",  do something now to bring the glory back to God?  We all feel betrayed, angry and broken, but I felt that way before I asked Christ into my heart, too.  Now, I have a hope and a "rest" like I have never had and I want to share it with people who have come out of this.  I want to share it with you too.

One thing that I have noticed is that most people coming out of cults despise "organized religion".  I was the same way, however, what I find is that in every gathering place, no matter what belief system, there are people who are there in mind and spirit and then those who are only going through the motions.  We are all sinners.  The only difference between me and the person going through the motions is I know I should be on my knees everyday because I am nothing without Christ.  With Him though, all things are possible.

May the grace of our Lord be with you and always direct your path.

  Peace.

 REPLY:

  YOU WROTE:
 I don't want to sound disrespectful at all

REPLY:
 I don't want to be disrespectful either.

YOU WROTE:
 don't you see how satan worked in Worldwide Church of God cult to damage trust so ultimately it would damage our faith?

REPLY:
 Damaged faith is good. It will bring you closer to reality because belief in anything without any proof is dangerous.

YOU WROTE:
 Faith is : belief which is not based on proof.

REPLY:
 Is that rational? What else do you have confident trust in absent any conclusive evidence? Is it any wonder that people that will believe things without any proof are easily mislead?

YOU WROTE:
 Part of the brain that is scarred by misled teaching is, always viewing the negative about everything and everybody and trying to "prove" everyone wrong.

REPLY:
 I think it is healthy to ask people to prove that they are right before I will believe them. I don't have to prove that they are wrong. The burden of proof is on the person making the outrageous claims; in this case, Christianity.

YOU WROTE:
 Do you believe now in the "reality" of Jesus Christ?

REPLY:
 I would welcome any historical evidence that your Jesus ever existed. Let me warn you ahead of time that I have already done the research: there is no evidence. You have leapt from the "frying pan of the Worldwide Church of God" into the "fire of the cult of Jesus." You should have learned your lesson that you paid for so dearly, and that is not to believe anything without proof.

YOU WROTE:
 Is He your personal saviour?

REPLY:
 Is Santa Clause your personal savior? Is Buddha? You don't believe in Zeus, do you? You don't believe in Vishnu, do you? What makes you reject these gods but accept Jesus? Why isn't Muhammad your personal savior? For all the reasons you reject these gods and saviors, I also reject your Jesus. I reject them all until someone can present some proof for their existence and their worthiness of my worship.

YOU WROTE:
 The main thing in this life is giving the glory to God.

REPLY:
 Each of us can decide what we want to be the main thing in our lives. Personally, I would not spend a lot of my time giving glory to a god that, at best, is hidden from mankind. If this god were a human "father," he would be in jail for child abuse.

YOU WROTE:
 Now, I have a hope and a "rest" like I have never had and I want to share it with people who have come out of this. I want to share it with you too.

REPLY:
 Well, thanks, but I prefer reality. I don't do drugs. You have pumped yourself up to believe fantastic things which you have no proof of at all.

YOU WROTE:
 We are all sinners.

REPLY:
 Only if others accept the premise that your religion is correct. I don't. Stick to your self-flagellation.

YOU WROTE:
 With Him though, all things are possible.

REPLY:
 With Him alone, nothing gets done. It is only when human beings do things that the things get done. The doctor saves the patient and Jesus gets the credit. Have your will made out if you trust in Jesus alone.

YOU WROTE:
 May the grace of our Lord be with you and always direct your path.

REPLY:
 May the grace of our Lords Buddha, Vishnu, Zeus, Olympus, Allah, Ahura, Mazda, be with you and always direct your path.

Editor PS: No, I am not BITTER. I just have little patience with self-righteous people preaching unproven, unprovable things at me as though they were the ultimate truth. You are welcome to believe whatever you want, just leave other people alone.

  REPLY:

Alrighty then.......all I can say is, you should know better than this. 

  REPLY:

YOU WROTE:
 Alrighty then.......all I can say is, you should know better than this.

REPLY:
 I'm sure that it would never occur to you that I might just know something that you haven't considered. What would it hurt you to look into it objectively?

I have been where you are at. You are trapped in a lying scheme that has been used since ancient times to control the minds and money of people that are too afraid to question what they are told. You can still escape. All you have to do is question and demand answers that a sane mind can accept.

Good luck to you.

Editor


Just found your site by accident but thought I'd reply

1) It's is ok to not believe in God, just like its ok to not believe in gravity. After someone jumps off the skyscraper they'll suddenly realize their thinking was flawed!

2) Ministers are no different than anyone else, they sin. DIFFERENCE, If they confess it, and FORSAKE IT ( repent and make things right ) they are forgiven just as anyone else. ( proverbs 28:13 )

3) I especially liked #25 about the worldwide minister in the cemetary. The greatest worldwide minister did go to the grave BUT he arose again. JESUS LOVES YOU!...HE DIED FOR YOU AND ME!

Pastor Scott

REPLY:

YOU WROTE:
 Just found your site by accident

REPLY:
 Why don't you go away on purpose?

YOU WROTE:
 It's is ok to not believe in God, just like its ok to not believe in gravity.

REPLY:
 The flaw in your "thinking" here is that I can prove that gravity exists.

YOU WROTE:
 ( proverbs 28:13 )

REPLY:
 Quoting verses from a flawed book to a person smart enough to recognize it could not be inspired by a perfect god, will not prove anything.

YOU WROTE:
 JESUS LOVES YOU!...HE DIED FOR YOU AND ME!

REPLY:
 I would suggest that you have to prove this person ever existed before you can prove that he loves anyone or died for anyone.

Please confine your delusions to your fellow mind-numb robots. Why is it that you people who have so little intelligence feel so superior to those that can actually use their brains? Just one of the mysteries of religion, I guess. Drugs will do that to you.

 Editor


Dear webmaster,

The "painful truth" is that you are a lost soul who is leading others astray using your hatred of God as a weapon. May God forgive you, for you truly do not know what you are doing....

 Carmen @ The Refiner's Fire
Website: www.therefinersfire.org

  REPLY:

 Well, if there really was a god, don't you think that IT would stop me from misleading people? Doesn't IT care that I and all those I am misleading are "lost souls?"

It is your god that needs to be forgiven for not giving one good shit about his creation. And IT is not getting any forgiveness from me until IT shows up and introduces ITself to me. And then IT has a lot of explaining to do.

Editor

 REPLY:

 You get to have that awful website because God allows us all choices. We have the choice to believe in and follow Him, or to believe in and follow Satan. Guess which one you're following?

God could have stopped my adoptive father from sexually abusing me throughout my childhood, but He didn't. Since we all have choices, unfortunately YOUR choice might impact somebody else, and then it's up to them to learn to deal with it hopefully through our loving God. (I know you can't possibly understand that concept.) For years I blamed God and then, when I "found" Him, I understood the above concept that He DOES NOT stop us from doing whatever we choose to do. That's why Jesus died to offer Himself as the final sacrifice for us so that we wouldn't be put to death over the smallest infraction, as people were throughout the Old Testament. Thanks to Jesus, you and your site haven't been zapped into oblivion....

I pray that your eyes will be opened before it's too late. The end times are here, and the anti-Christ will soon come onto the scene. When he does, people like you will fall for his crap and truly be destined for hell. The Bible tells us that most people will end up in hell because it's just too hard for them to understand the things of God; it's simply easier to live a life of anger, hate and revenge (as you are obviously doing through your website). You must have really been hurt in your lifetime....

Editor, I promise, one day you will get to meet "IT" in Person, and then you will have a lot of explaining to do....

Carmen @ The Refiner's Fire

REPLY:

 Was it your choice to be sexually abused by your father? Did Jesus die so that you could suffer at the hands of your pervert father and then your father could be forgiven?

Are you trying to tell me that your ineffective god did not help a little child because we have "free will?" If that is the case, then you can never get a prayer answered or have an intervention by this "god" because that would take away your free will. God cannot change anything that was supposed to happen without taking away all "free will" for all human beings.

You have to decide how you can

#1. Reconcile an uninvolved god who will allow a child to be sexually abused by her father because IT allows "free will."

Or

#2. Reconcile a god that COULD answer prayer and save a child from being sexually abused, because IT does not allow "free will," but STILL does absolutely nothing.

In either case you have a god that, if IT were a human being, would be thrown into jail for being an accomplice to a crime.

YOU WROTE:
 The Bible tells us that most people will end up in hell because it's just too hard for them to understand the things of God;

REPLY:
 Is that the kind of god that you really want to worship? If I were a god, I would make sure that everyone knew exactly what I expected of them before I judged their lives and then fried them to a crisp. If a child is lost, we don't expect the child to find the parent. Why do human beings have such a much higher level of compassion and love than your god?

YOU WROTE:
 Editor, I promise, one day you will get to meet "IT" in Person,

REPLY:
 You can't promise something to me that you can't even prove to yourself.

Now, go away and sulk in your Christian superiority and smugness. Your religion is a drug that affects your ability to think and reason.

Editor

 REPLY:

 I told you you wouldn't understand. No, it wasn't my choice to be sexually abused by my father. It was my FATHER's choice (he chose to follow Satan) to do the things he did. God had nothing to do with it.

God HAS made sure that people could know Who He is. It's called the Bible. Those who don't have the Holy Spirit living inside them, cannot possibly understand. I used to think the Bible was a bunch of fairy tales until I "saw the light". You have a choice to "see the light" or remain in the dark.

I will never "go away and sulk" in my "Christian superiority and smugness", as I have made it my mission in life to reach out to the lost and to counter those who speak out against God. Just as you have the audacity to have a website that spreads vicious lies about God, I have a website that speaks out against you and your ilk. Within the next couple of days, you will be able to find your illogical, hateful comments posted on the Letters and Opinion page of my website.

When you finally meet your Maker, at least you won't be able to say "I didn't know..."

Carmen @ The Refiner's Fire

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:
 God had nothing to do with it.

REPLY:
 I notice that you have completely ignored my questions about "free will." Is it just easier to ignore the fact that, if you believe in answered prayer, your god deserted you when you needed help the most? Apparently your Satan is stronger than your god.

YOU WROTE:
 God HAS made sure that people could know Who He is. It's called the Bible.

REPLY:
 Well, the bible can easily be proven to be flawed by anyone that will examine it with the same measurement that they would use for any other book. What kind of god would expect people that could use their brains to know what they were supposed to believe out of a flawed book? How could such a person be held responsible? As far as I know, it is always the responsibility of the person trying to communicate to effectively communicate. If that is not done, the person that did not understand is not at fault.

YOU WROTE:
 Those who don't have the Holy Spirit living inside them, cannot possibly understand.

REPLY:
 So, you have to have the Holy Spirit living inside of you in order to understand but you can't have the Holy Spirit living inside you if you don't understand. Do you see anything wrong with this reasoning?

YOU WROTE:
 You have a choice to "see the light" or remain in the dark.

REPLY:
 What if the person, such as myself cannot see the light because he refuses to turn his brain off, such as yourself? The light don't come ON until the brain goes OFF.

YOU WROTE:
 I have made it my mission in life to reach out to the lost and to counter those who speak out against God.

REPLY:
 Why should that be your job? Why shouldn't it be the job of your god? Or is your god just too weak to do anything on his own?

YOU WROTE:
 Just as you have the audacity to have a website that spreads vicious lies about God

REPLY:
 What are those lies? I have said that I would remove anything on my site, ( www.hwarmstrong.com ) that is untrue. Tell me what the lies are, give me proof, and I will remove the offensive pages or text.

YOU WROTE:
 When you finally meet your Maker, at least you won't be able to say "I didn't know..."

REPLY:
 I will be able to say that "The people that pretended to represent you, expected me to believe fantastic and unbelievable things with absolutely no proof at all. They expected me to turn my brain off, just as they had done themselves, and accept what anyone wanted to tell me was "from god." They expected me to believe a book, demonstrably full of errors and contradictions, was the inspired word of a perfect god. Some of them made excuses for the errors and said that the words really didn't mean what they said but they never told me how I was supposed to know which words meant what they said and which meant something else. It seemed as though the things that didn't fit in with their beliefs really meant something else and the things that they believed out of the book, well, they meant exactly what they said. Many different churches within the same religion believed the book said exactly the opposite of what other churches believed. Besides that, there were multiple many other religions that all had different beliefs, equally claiming to be from the perfect god and that, if I didn't believe as they did, then their gods were going to send me to some equally horrible end after I died.

I had a limited lifetime. I had to earn a living and provide food, housing, clothing, education to my family. I didn't have time to try to sort out all this confusion that YOU allowed to exist. If it was really important to YOU whether I or anyone else followed your directives, I would think that YOU would have been just a little bit clearer about what you wanted from me."

The Christian god would then say: "Tough. Since you would not turn your brain off and follow whatever religious con-men say about me, just like Carmen has done, you are condemned to eternal death."

And then I would say: "You are just as evil and irrational as the god of the bible. I'm glad that I didn't waste any more of my life and money, than I did, trying to figure out, logically and intelligently, just what the hell you wanted from me. I'll be glad to not spend any more of my life or after-life with you. You are not worthy of being in the presence of people that can use their brains. Take Carmen and your other mind-numb robots and live forever in blithering idiocy with them. You should all be happy together."

YOU WROTE:
 Within the next couple of days, you will be able to find your illogical, hateful comments posted on the Letters and Opinion page of my website.

REPLY:
 Fine. Just don't edit anything that you or I wrote. If you do, your god will get you and you will suffer the same fate as you so joyfully want for me.

 Editor

 REPLY:

First of all, I don't want you to suffer anything bad.  Quite the contrary.  I wish you would open your eyes and see the light.  I will respond by putting your comments in red:
 
I notice that you have completely ignored my questions about "free will." Is it just easier to ignore the fact that, if you believe in answered prayer, your god deserted you when you needed help the most? Apparently your Satan is stronger than your god. 
 
I didn't ignore your questions about free will.  I told you, God gives us all free will. We can choose to believe whatever we wish. My God did not desert me at all.  He was allowing my father (the one who raped me for years) to exercise his free will.  Trust me, Satan is NOT stronger than my God!  After all, Satan is only a creation, too. Or didn't you know that?
 
Well, the bible can easily be proven to be flawed by anyone that will examine it with the same measurement that they would use for any other book. What kind of god would expect people that could use their brains to know what they were supposed to believe out of a flawed book? How could such a person be held responsible? As far as I know, it is always the responsibility of the person trying to communicate to effectively communicate. If that is not done, the person that did not understand is not at fault.
 
Certainly, the Bible is flawed to a certain extent - but ONLY in the various translations because Hebrew was hard to translate.  Some things got mistranslated when they were translated from Hebrew into Greek, into English, etc. It happens.  But, God's original Word -- the heart of the matter - however, remains true and unchanged:  YHWH created the world. The Jews are His Chosen People. Jesus (God Incarnate) died in exchange for your sins, and He will return after the anti-Christ has been in power for 3 1/2 years. No one has ever been able to dispute the content of the Bible, except for some of the Catholic, man-made stuff, which isn't found in any "regular" Bibles.
 
So, you have to have the Holy Spirit living inside of you  in order to understand but you can't have the Holy Spirit living inside you if you don't understand. Do you see anything wrong with this reasoning?
 
I said the only way to understand the things of God is to have the Holy Spirit living inside of you.  The only way to do this is to repent of your sins, confess with your mouth that you believe Jesus is God, and then ask Him to come into your heart.  Until you do that, you will never understand God or the Bible.  That's just the way it goes.
 
What if the person, such as myself cannot see the light because he refuses to turn his brain off, such as yourself? The light don't come ON until the brain goes OFF.
 
That's the problem:  you refuse to let go of your "carnal" self.  Inviting the Holy Spirit into your heart does not mean "turning your brain off".  That's ludicrous.  It just means you acknowledge to the Creator that YOU are not in charge; HE is, and that you desire to lead life the way HE intended. 
 
Why should that be your job (getting people to see the Truth)? Why shouldn't it be the job of your god? Or is your god just too weak to do anything on his own?
 
Trust me, He is not too weak.  Like I said, He gives us all choices.  God doesn't need us to DO anything.  When we are believers, we CHOOSE to do for Him. However, the Bible tells us that the fruits of our belief are revealed in our works.  It also commands us to spread the Gospel. Not because God can't do it on His own, but because we, as His children, need to learn to obey Him. If you want to find out why God doesn't "make it easy" for us to know Him anymore, read the Book of Genesis.
 
What are those lies? I have said that I would remove anything on my site, ( www.hwarmstrong.com ) that is untrue. Tell me what the lies are, give me proof, and I will remove the offensive pages or text.
 
Your entire site is full of lies, sacrasm and misconceptions about something you know nothing about.  I don't have the time nor the inclination to disprove your ludicrous allegations. You are going to pooh-pooh anything I say, anyway, so why bother?  If you were ever to "see the light", you'd immediately fall on your face, repent, and remove your entire website, because you would see how totally offensive and revolting it is to God. God tells us not to waste our time with unbelievers.  (If you want I could quote several Scriptures along those lines.)  The only reason I do it at all, is because I can't sit idly back and allow webmasters of hateful, anti-God websites to get by with it, without letting them know that what they are doing will lead them to hell.  What they do with the information I send them is strictly up to them.  But at least I can console myself with the knowledge that I tried to show them the error of their ways.
 
I will be able to say that "The people that pretended to represent you, expected me to believe fantastic and unbelievable things with absolutely no proof at all. They expected me to turn my brain off, just as they had done themselves, and accept what anyone wanted to tell me was "from god." They expected me to believe a book, demonstrably full of errors and contradictions, was the inspired word of a perfect god. Some of them made excuses for the errors and said that the words really didn't mean what they said but they never told me how I was supposed to know which words meant what they said and which meant something else. It seemed as though the things that didn't fit in with their beliefs really meant something else and the things that they believed out of the book, well, they meant exactly what they said. Many different churches within the same religion believed the book said exactly the opposite of what other churches believed. Besides that, there were multiple many other religions that all had different beliefs, equally claiming to be from the perfect god and that, if I didn't believe as they did, then their gods were going to send me to some equally horrible end after I died.
 
It is obvious that you really don't know a thing about the Bible (either that or, you were taught by people who didn't know what they were talking about, and got turned off). You are going by hearsay and things you've gleaned on your own from various, unrealiable sources. The Bible is FULL of proof to those who "have an ear".  God does not expect you to turn your brain off.  Your brain, in the grand scheme of things, is nothing but a limited, finite organ that will someday cease to exist. Our limited human brains thought up all these idiotic "religions" because people didn't want to believe what God said, or they "read into" Scripture whatever they wanted in order to put God in a "human box" that they could understand.  Even the word "church" is manmade. (It started several hundred years after Jesus' death.  Jesus never went to "church".  He was a Biblical feast-keeping, tallit-wearing Jew who attended and taught in synagogues.) We have all these various religions because we are human, and we want what we want, period - regardless of what God wants.  If you will check your history of religion, you will see that all religions (even Islam) in one way or another borrowed their ideas from the Old Testament.  Even that moron, "Rael" who just cloned the first human baby, borrowed his ideas from the Old Testament. (There must be something really intoxicating about the Old Testament, because all kooks refer to it in one way or another....)
 
I had a limited lifetime. I had to earn a living and provide food, housing, clothing, education to my family. I didn't have time to try to sort out all this confusion that YOU allowed to exist. If it was really important to YOU whether I or anyone else followed your directives, I would think that YOU would have been just a little bit clearer about what you wanted from me."
 
Well, I've had a limited lifetime as well. You think I didn't have to earn a living and provide food, housing, clothing, etc?  I spent 22 years in the Army. My life wasn't straightened out until I discovered Jesus; I "did it my way" for most of my life, and nothing ever went really right until I found God. Sure, my career was fine and I accomplished many things in life.  But nothing ever filled that "hole in my soul" - the one that everybody has, whether they admit it or not - until I found God. When you live outside God's Torah (teaching and instruction), you can end up misrable in many ways (relationships, major problems with your kids, spouse, career, health, etc). That is not to say, you'd never have any problems if you were "walking in Torah", but you would certainly learn to deal with trials in a different way.  (Look at the world today, with its major problems.  If we all heeded the Ten Commandments, we wouldn't be in these awful fixes we're in:  record numbers of murders, illegitimate babies, abortions, divorces, drug and alcohol problems, terrorism, wars and rumors of wars, etc. At the risk of using a cliche, things will only get worse before they get better.  The Bible says so.)
 
The Christian god would then say: "Tough. Since you would not turn your brain off and follow whatever religious con-men say about me, just like Carmen has done, you are condemned to eternal death."
 
That comment shows you know nothing about God.
 
And then I would say: "You are just as evil and irrational as the god of the bible. I'm glad that I didn't waste any more of my life and money, than I did, trying to figure out, logically and intelligently, just what the hell you wanted from me. I'll be glad to not spend any more of my life or after-life with you. You are not worthy of being in the presence of people that can use their brains. Take Carmen and your other mind-numb robots and live forever in blithering idiocy with them. You should all be happy together."
 
I truly hope our Creator will forgive you for saying these awful things about Him. You're going to look mighty silly on Judgment Day when you stand there - completely naked and vulnerable, without your sharp, sarcastic words to protect you - and try to justify who you are, and why you completely ignored a God who has tried to get your attention in one way or another.
 
You sound fairly intelligent, so I hope you will pay attention to what I'm about to say: If God and the Bible aren't real, then why have hundreds of Bible prophecies already come true?  (You can get enlighted here: http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm,  http://www.therefinersfire.org/todays_prophecies.htm, http://www.therefinersfire.org/end_of_age.htm, and http://www.therefinersfire.org/fuse_of_armageddon.htm) The Books of Daniel, and Revelation tell us what is about to happen in the near future. The end times are upon us (the Bible tells us that we would know the end times because they would be "as the days of Noah were" when the whole world was decadent and full of evil as it is now; plus, there will be great earthquakes, famine, diseases, etc. In the last decade we have had more earthquakes than in the last century, along with more hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, droughts and floods. The European Union was foretold in the Bible, written 2,000 years ago!
 
I'm sure you're planning to tell me, "Well, there have always been kooks who tried to scare us into thinking the world was coming to an end, and we're still here."  Then I would have to tell you that they didn't know their Bibles very well because before the "end" could come, Israel had to become a nation once more, as God promised in the Old Testament.  This happened in 1948. Since then, more Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, such as, the whole world would go up against Israel - in other words, war.  What is happening right now, and why?  Because the Muslims want Israel and the world is divided into Israel and anti-Israel/Jew. Everything hinges around the Jews and Israel.  God says if you are against Israel, you're dead meat and that in the end, Israel, the Jews, and those who belong to God, will stand.  But you knew all that, right?....
 
Don't worry, I won't need to edit anything that either one of us wrote. Everything we said is perfectly clear to readers of all beliefs.
 
Carmen
 
God bless!
Carmen @ The Refiner's Fire

 REPLY:

Sorry Carmen, I don't have the time or the patience. We obviously are not going to persuade each other so why bother? I don't care if you have your website, why do you care if I have mine? Don't you think people are intelligent enough to weigh the two sides and make their own decision? Have you ever read about the Inquisition or the Crusades? All about good religious folk, just like you, defending their weak and impotent god because they had no confidence in IT defending ITself, since they could find no evidence of IT ever doing ANYTHING. If you people could just have your religious beliefs and leave other people alone this world would be a much better place to live. But you can't do that, can you?

You shouldn't have to do all this work of defending your illogical beliefs on your own. Send your god after me. I've been looking for IT for years. I challenge your god to stop me before more people learn the truth about your religion and are freed from mind-numbing belief in delusions. Religion is truly a drug and you are one of the drug pushers.

This dialog is now finished.

Editor, PT

REPLY:

Then why are you doing all that work to defend YOUR illogical beliefs? You must really be hiding something. But, just because you choose to ignore God doesn't mean that He will go away. You WILL be standing before Him one day, whether you choose to believe it, or not.

Have a nice life. I'm through wasting MY time, as well. You aren't worth it.

 Carmen @ The Refiner's Fire

REPLY:

 YOU WROTE:
 I'm through wasting MY time, as well. You aren't worth it.

REPLY:
 That is an interesting comment from someone that assumes that they are a good Christian. To think that you would so easily condemn me to eternal death is just a little disturbing.

Now, I can excuse my lack of interest in trying to convert you to my beliefs because you lose nothing, other than wasting your present life, if I am right.

If YOU are right, I lose everything. I thought your whole purpose for being a Christian was to convince others to believe as you do and to lead by your good works, knowing that they are lost forever if you do not save them. I'm really surprised at your attitude. I think you will have some explaining to do to your "god" when you stand in judgment.

Whatever. You have now offended me so much by your un-Christian, un-loving behavior that I will not be accepting any more messages from you. My eternal condemnation is now on your head. Better think up a good excuse.

Editor


 Dear Editor:

I read a few of the articles on your web site. It is quite apparent that whoever wrote them has a lot of pent up hatred inside. I am sorry if someone there had a terrible experience with one church. But I do not believe that all churches should be put in the same category.

You voiced concern for others: "What kind of god would help some people but let other people suffer horrendous tortures, misery and death? Would you want such a god helping you?" You don't seem to mind fostering hatred and malice in your web site among your fellow man. I don't see anything particularly positive or helpful to people about your web site. The one good thing you have going about warning people to not put their complete trust in another human being for guidance is completely shrowded by overwhelming hate. I do hope that whoever reads this will not be blinded from a wonderful relationship to be had with Jesus Christ because of one experience in their lifetime. Life is full of bad experiences. But we have two choices when we meet them. You can either learn from them and grow or you can let it eat at you and destroy you.

I do agree that no one should put their full trust in any human being to be their lifeline to God. God has made a way for each and every one of us to have our own line of direct communication with him through Jesus Christ, his son, who He being the creator and supreme ruler of this universe reached down to our level and sent His son to die for us. He is not a God that enjoys seeing us grovel like you said in your article. He is God and has a rightful claim to supreme power whether we like it or not. That is the way it is. But He is a God that is good. I have seen His handiwork in my own life. And if He can work miracles in my life and do amazing things, He will do it in anyone's life that asks Him because I am nothing special.

I just wanted you and whoever reads this to know that there is another side of life that is wonderful and full of joy to be had with knowing our Lord, Jesus Christ, one without hatred and misery; and that He is able and ready to remove bitterness and hatred from our souls. He is a God of love, joy, peace and contentment.

This is my opinion. I would welcome your comments.  givegodtheglory@hotmail.com

REPLY: 

 Lisa,

There are possibly millions of websites out there. I would suggest that you read the ones you like and don't read the ones that you don't like. That's what I do.

Editor


Editor,

Here's another very well-expressed reason why some of us haven't yet "gotten over" the anger we experience as we learn how we were mind-raped and wallet-raped by the many years we wasted in Perbie's grand cult scam: "I make the sufferers' case my own, and I protest, that were I driven from house and home, my property destroyed, and my circumstances ruined, that as a man, sensible of injuries, I could never relish the doctrine of reconciliation, or consider myself bound thereby." [FEB 1776; "Common Sense", by Thomas Paine, probably the most popular writer in the 1770s and the man most responsible for stirring up the 13 American colonies to revolt against the injurious British rule]

Bill Fairchild
Douglas, Mass.

REPLY: 

Bill,

I'll second that motion.

As long as people are slaves, how can we just walk away? I really can't comprehend that way of thinking.

Editor

REPLY: 

And Tom Paine wasn't even a native-born American. He lived in England until 1774 when he met Ben Franklin on one of his visits to England, who persuaded Paine to move to Philadelphia, which he promptly did and immediately started writing stirring pamphlets. His first was against American slavery. And he saved his best for last (Age of Reason). :-)

Bill


Was the Worldwide Church of God an cult and what kind of proof do you have to back your claim? I am very interested as I am married to an "ex-member" and I am appalled at the way my husband treats me if he is such a "Man of God" I don't know what to do about this relationship, as I am a Christian, who has been married before and truly do not want to end up in another divorce, but the verbal and emotional abuse is just getting to be too much. He is or was planning a trip out to California to see the Church and the College, to visit some of the other members. He thinks he is a prophet sent by God to save the people, but he is abusive, drinks and smokes marijuana? This doesn't make sense to me. Help me please.

REPLY: 

 YOU WROTE:
 Was the Worldwide Church of God an cult and what kind of proof do you have to back your claim?

REPLY:
 Yes, it was a cult. See: http://www.caic.org.au/general/idencult.htm  for a definition of what a cult is. The old Worldwide Church of God fits this description. No doubt about it. Read first person horror stories: www.herbertwarmstong.com\horror.htm Read the PT website and the old Ambassador Reports and you have your proof.

YOU WROTE:
 I am appalled at the way my husband treats me if he is such a "Man of God"

REPLY:
 I'm sorry, but, if you accept the bible teachings, as a woman, you are property and virtually a slave. You have no rights and your husband can do to you, virtually what he wants. That is just what the bible teaches. Deal with it. See:
God's" Opinion of Women  
Men, Women and Gods page 1  
 Women in the Bible 
The Bible and Sex 

YOU WROTE:
 He thinks he is a prophet sent by God to save the people, but he is abusive, drinks and smokes marijuana? This doesn't make sense to me. Help me please.

REPLY:
 If I were in your situation, I would get myself as far as possible away from this person as quickly as I could.

YOU WROTE:
 This doesn't make sense to me. Help me please.

REPLY:
 Religion does not have to make sense. In fact, it can't make sense. People believe it because they want to believe it not because they have any proof.

I hope you can figure out what is going on here.

Editor


Hi,

I am a former World Wide Church of God member. I have had the same experiences as many of the contributors to your website....but I have a different problem. I am no longer associating with the "church" but would like to find and contact former members who are no longer attending. Three years ago, I moved to Long Beach, Mississippi and so never attended the WWCG in this area, so am not familiar with any of the former members. I am looking for a new "church home" but am not interested in joining any of the protestant churches who buy into the immortal soul Christmas celebrating masses. I am interested in possibly finding a small group who meets on a regular basis, who really have a love for the truth without all the organizational ties and corruption. Do you have any suggestions on how I might find some of the former members in my area?

Beverly

REPLY: 

I'm afraid you have not read my FAQ.

Editor


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