The following comments appeared below one of the recent postings. They deserve a wider audience.
There is a difference between "cursing the memory of everything COG," which I doubt that most do, and admitting to the fact that the foundations of the organization(s) was based on a terribly flawed premise.
There was much I enjoyed about my COG years. Some wonderful people. Some beautiful settings, including the campuses, and many of the Feast sites. I have strong and pleasant memories of many things.
That has nothing to do, unfortunately, with the realization that I came to in the past decade: I simply do not believe that a creator God would establish his "end-time true church" through an individual who, at that very time, couldn't keep his hands off his own daughter. All the rest, as they say, is just details.
I have read and heard those who have tried to discredit that story. Personally, I didn't want to believe it. But it was first told to me by an individual who remains a prominent, well-known and widely read COG true believer. He was and is convinced HWA did those things, but followed it with "it doesn't affect the message."
Sorry, but it most certainly does. As I quietly explored what he had told me -- I presume he thought either that I already knew or that, if I didn't, I would blow it off like he had -- I talked with several individuals, some from many years past who had left the organization without fanfare. I encountered one close friend from childhood who was surprised I didn't know and said he had heard the news from an Armstrong grandson. Another person close to me had heard the news from a different Armstrong grandson, one who certainly would have known, back in the 70s. When I asked why she'd never said anything, she admitted she hadn't wanted to hurt me, my parents, etc. Both people had parted ways with the WCG some 15 or more years earlier.
I cannot speak for others, but that sort of news changes everything. Too much of the organization's history was tied up in the premise that a man -- that man -- could be "the one," and that it was God's design that we all fall in line behind him for the end-time push. It amazes me that there are individuals -- especially some who I know personally and who I know are well aware of this sordid tale -- who continue to fall back on "Mr. Armstrong said" as a way to trump all arguments, when what the man did speaks so much louder...especially when one considers that it was at the very beginning of everything.
Yes, it's old news now. But I am amazed that there are those willing to sweep it aside to protect their turf and pursue arguments. I am not.
Learning the news caused me to look at things in a different light. I realized I had to. It was during a time of doctrinal upheaval in the WCG, and I transitioned from skepticism to curiosity.
I don't curse the memory of everything COG. I love and care about many people who remain, and recall them, and certain activities, etc., with fondness. But as the defenders of the faith (read: man) rally to their cause, I can't get past this foundational problem. It is not lost on me that neither can they.
117 comments:
Well stated.
I'm sure there are many like myself, who are no longer a part of the WCG or its splinters, who look back fondly and without vitriol at the many acquaintances and experiences from their years in the Church.
Unfortunately, it seems the vocal and overwhelming minority (the ones who post on these blogs) are the who are represented on this blog.
I have fond memories of SEP, YOU, AC, feasts, etc. I'm certain many others do as well. Sure the Church had its downside. However, the "restrictions" of the Church were more than outweighed at the time by the many positive and wonderful things associated with it.
When I reached a point as an adult where the Church was no longer for me, I left. Without hatred or anger.
Everyone looks back at their childhood and wishes certain things were different about it. Welcome to the human race. As members of the church we were not kidnapped into some David Koresh like compound, despite what many imply.
To those out there who will bitch and complain about the 10% tithes + offerings you were "forced" to pay, think of it as a country club membership + gratuity.
The Church was complete with activities for young and old alike, gatherings, socials, clubs, potlucks and a weekly social life that many in the world today would be jealous of. And, all were free to the members. Members were also free to cancel their "membership" at any time.
I canceled mine. Surprisingly, I find myself missing it from time to time, for both myself and my kids.
At one time I thought it would do a world of good if an investigative reporter would simply establish or discredit the account of HWAs incest.
Now I have come to believe that it makes no difference. There are people who are deeply committed to Armstrongism because if meets needs that they have. This is different for different people. Given these conditions, Herbert's influence will never die. He will always be carefully preserved, like a genie in a bottle, to be invoked when needed.
HWA has passed from being a controversial personage to being a tool. To those people for whom he is a means to and end, his history is irrelevant.
-- Neo
To some of us it would certainly be relevant if proven.
The problem is that you guys never produce any PROOF! You know, EVIDENCE: court testamony or affidavits of actual witnesses--maybe a statement by the alleged "victim". We keep hearing "a friend of mine who knew...", "a well-placed minister back in the 70s..", "an individual who remains a prominent, well-known and widely read COG true believer", "Mr. (disgruntled former member who has told a host of whoppers) said...", "one close friend ...who..said he had heard the news from an Armstrong" relative (uncle, aunt, cousin, brother, grandson, neice--you name it),"a person close to me had heard the news from a different Armstrong grandson" (ooh, more 2nd or 3rd party hearsay).
Smoke, mirrors, inuendo, shadowy unknown (but important sounding!) "sources". Phantoms, shades and spooks that never quite show themselves and "proof" that never materializes. Could this be because they themselves do not actually exist, or could they perhaps, oh, I don't know, be LYING?!
And if the "individual who remains a prominent, well-known and widely read COG true believer" you are refering to is Dibar Apartian, then what you are saying is not true--he was directly asked and stated clearly that he "never said that".
Those of you who keep regurgitating the rumor that HWA molested his daughter need to either put up, or shut up.
-Paco
REGARDLESS OF WHAT HWA DID OR DIDN'T DO, READ YOUR BIBLE,THE TRUTH STANDS ON IT'S OWN MERIT,THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH,NO MATTER WHERE IT COMES FROM,ALL ONE NEED TO DO IS STAY WITH IT, GOD WILL JUDGE US ALL,UNLESS WE WANT TO BE JUDGED AS WE JUDGE.
I'll take Door #2. If the bible is any indication of how God judges, I'll choose to be judged as "we" judge.
Thanks for the choice!
"Yes, it's old news now. But I am amazed that there are those willing to sweep it aside to protect their turf and pursue arguments."
This whole subject is argumentative. Thank you to Paco for the "put up or shut-up" comment. Here say is all we have and there is absolutely no proof.
What you are saying here is that someone heard that someone said. We have three hearsay witnesses. One 'believed it' to be true, so really only two hearsay issues.
Most of you who believe this garbage choose to believe it. There is just no proof.
As far as the message. If you were all right that he did these things, still and all, what he supposedly 'stole' from others teachings is still pretty interesting stuff. I know there are some who will say using proof texts. The whole Bible proves the Sabbath. It is actually a few proof texts that may say the opposite, and even those three are just thread compared to the actual evidence there is about Sabbath keeping.
You have more proof about keeping Saturday, which you choose not to believe, and no actual evidence for your continued accusations and derisions, based on hearsay, rumor and ad hominem attacks.
Prove all things. Even you could agree to that. Give us proof, not just feelings or choice based on just mere choice. Of course, many have a constitution right to choose anything they wish to choose. But when it comes to something like this, really. What sheer garbage.
Vern Mattison confirmed what wife Dorothy personally told him about HWA's assaults on her.
What kind of confirmation proof do you guys need to believe, the DNA from her shorts?
I could care less what people say about HWA. He was a real flamer. Besides, we really did have first person testimony, in the personage of David Robinson. Rader and the boys tried to sue to keep The Tangled Web of HWA from being published. But they could not sue for slander or libel, because truth is the best defense possible in a lible suit.
It really urinates me off that people say all manner of horrible things about GTA. Yeah, he was a sinner, but he actually lived life, and I really admired him for that. He was always a more real person than his father. Now, lest anyone misunderstand, I do not believe GTA was qualified to be a bishop, but then again we didn't have any bishops in the WCG, that was always a Catholic thing.
Herbert and Dottie. Their "history" was even raised in court during Herb's divorce with Ramona.
That's DIVORCE, as in the wicked thing Herb preached against for decades - even breaking up families over it - until... it became personally inconvenient to do so.
Herbert and Dottie. Ever ask yourself why WCG never took David Robinson to court over those allegations?
Or John Trechak of Ambassador Report?
Dibar Apartian apart, let's list just three of the people who've supported the Herbert and Dottie account.
William Dankenbring.
Garner Ted Armstrong.
David Robinson.
If I bothered to go back and check Tangled Web or the old AR's the list would expand significantly.
These men weren't anti-COG. They were deeply conservative Bible-believers. Dankenbring is still preaching a version of Armstrongism. But they knew exactly what Herb was and had done.
You want proof, but you know that these events took place long before most of us had heard of WCG, and many of us were born. But the evidence is compelling.
Armstrong was a predator and abuser, spiritually and physically.
Here's what Ambassador Report stated in its Dec. 1 1980 issue.
INCEST ALLEGATIONS NOT DENIED
Many AR readers who have read David Robinson's book Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web have written to us expressing absolute shock at some of the allegations it contains. Especially disturbing to many are the allegations contained in chapter 20 entitled "Incest."
We sincerely wish that we could report uncovering evidence to negate Mr. Robinson's charges, but unfortunately that is not the case. Herbert Armstrong has not issued any statement discounting the charges, nor has Stan Rader. Dorothy Mattson, Herbert Armstrong's daughter, has not come forward to deny the allegations. And Garner Ted Armstrong has also refused to deny the charges. The Toronto Star, Sept. 20 (p. F4) wrote:
"Contacted by phone in Tyler, Texas, where he heads his own new church, the Church of God International, Garner Ted Armstrong said he had 'no comment' regarding allegations of his father's incest ...."
Since the publication of David Robinson's book, a number of WCG ministers have privately commented that under certain "special circumstances" incest should not be considered a factor in determining a man's qualifications for certain ministerial offices. We find this difficult to fathom but, of course, we are not theologians. Nevertheless, since the publication of Robinson's book, one AR reader thoroughly researched the subject of father-daughter incest and discovered - not surprisingly - that the vast majority of psychiatrists and psychologists today still believe that incest is a sexual aberration with serious psychological consequences for all concerned.
It's important this information isn't lost. Those who forget the lessons of history are often doomed to repeat them.
Shriek, scream and pound the walls all you like, Herb's deviance won't go away just because you want to unshatter the idol. Go argue with the Toronto Star.
Can't destroy the message, go after the messenger. Nevermind he's been deed for almost 20 years......
I hope everyone treats your dead relatives better.
Never mind the fact that prophecy as stated by HWA is turning out to be true. Maybe not on your time scale, but God's.
What of bunch of whining, carping, feely never do wells. If everyone in the world sat around and focused on actual or perceived past mistreatment 24/7 like some of you, nothing would ever get done. You think you've been mistreated? Try being a prisoner of war, I guess you'd just lay down and cry all the time then. Get over it! No one is forcing you to go to church or ever did for that matter.
"But I am so scarred" No your not, your only as scarred as you let yourself be. You are not a victim! You want to show real growth after leaving WCG, GCG, LCG, whatever......leave this website behind and move on.
***************************
Otto von Habsburg made the Vatican's news:
Christian Statesman - Dr. Otto von Habsburg
Inside the Vatican - Feb 15, 2007by Cathy Pearson
At 94, the "uncrowned emperor" and visionary architect of a reunified Europe carries on a thousand-year legacy of Catholic political leadership...
Europe the cradle of Christendom, where Christianity has become politically incorrect. Europe that stopped Islamic invasions at Tours and Lepanto and Vienna, but where now in some of its countries "Mohammed" is the single most popular name registered for newborn boys. Europe the 21st century's amnesiac lost child, bent on demographic suicide yet somehow still hearkening to its unique destiny as the heart of Christian civilization.
If the "problem of Europe" weighs heavily on the heart of this Bavarian pope, no one man better personifies a truly Catholic response to it than does Dr. Otto von Habsburg, heir of the last great Catholic monarchy and visionary architect of today's expanding European Union. His decades of public service in the political arena exemplify the best in Europe's Christian past and its hopes for a peaceful, united and still Christian future.
Born to a 700-year-old imperial dynasty, the present-day head of the House of Habsburg has, in his own way, taken up the same mantle of responsibility borne by the Austrian emperors, and the Holy Roman Emperors before them, without benefit of any of the office's perks or powers. Probably most identified with Dr. von Habsburg is the staggering achievement of European unity in our lifetime after a century of warfare and Cold War polarization. No one has done more to bring about the new Europe, or to manifest it in his own person. A citizen of at least four nations, an orator who switches effortlessly between German, French, Hungarian and other languages, with descendants and extended family members in more countries than one could count, his allegiance goes beyond any national boundary. He himself has recalled as an epiphany the day he first spontaneously answered the nationality question with "I am a European."
The man who would become "Mr. Europe" began life as the son and heir of the last emperor-king of the Austro-Hungarian Empire -- the recently beatified Karl of the House of Austria -- who had inherited the thrones of the Dual Monarchy as World War I raged...
While still in office and then in exile, Emperor Karl had personally taught Otto as his successor -- both by word and example -- that the office of a ruler is one of holy service and selfless sacrifice for the good of the peoples entrusted to him...
Pope John Paul II, in beatifying Emperor Karl, called him a model for Christian statesmen of today, especially in Europe. Otto himself shows how that ideal is as relevant to a democratic age as it was in the days of monarchy. And his faithful witness to that role began long before he became a public officeholder. Technically, the imperial mantle fell on his shoulders the moment his father passed to eternity...
If Dr. von Habsburg has been at the heart of Europe's transformation into a multinational superpower -- with a multicultural base that has become as "in" today as balkanization into national enclaves was "in" 90 years ago -- he has also been ahead of his time in addressing the challenge of Europe's identity and survival in a larger world. Like Pope Benedict XVI, he is also on the cutting edge of today's topic du jour, European-Muslim relations...
The role of religion in the public square is one of the great unfinished agenda items confronting Europe, as it is for all nations in today's secular world. Dr. Otto von Habsburg is a political leader whose identity as a Catholic is as unmistakable as his identity as a European...
Will Europe ever again hope to see a truly Christian, Catholic civilization?
And so we asked Archduke Otto, during those joyful October days, "what about the other half, ‘for the good of the Church'?" He answered with great energy and conviction, eyes sparkling, "Oh, it will come -- it will come!" He added there are places where indications of it can be seen already... http://www.insidethevatican.com/articles/otto-von-habsburg.htm also http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=7982
The late Herbert W. Armstrong knew Otto von Habsburg and often indicated that he was playing a major role in European unity (and the development of the beast power). Note that the Catholic Church and Dr. von Habsburg still intend to make the EU strongly Roman Catholic. Prophecy will be fulfilled (such as those shown in the article Europa and the Beast of Revelation).
It's amazing somethings put their faith in. "I read it in a book" so "it must be true!" belief in God requires a lot less faith than belief in evolution or HWA incest allogations. Some of you strain at a gnat and then swallow a camel.
Armstrongite: I think you've been into the kaneh bosm.
HWA was strictly Deut. 18:22.
"just three of the people who've supported the Herbert and Dottie account.
William Dankenbring.
Garner Ted Armstrong.
David Robinson."
I think it was David Robinson who quoted GTA and GTA never admitted this to anyone else. Again, Robinson said that he was told that GTA said.....great proof.
Dankenbring, well, his only proof is that the ten years that HWA was predicting away before and during WWII were the years and that he was not being blessed by God due to his false predictions so therefore.... what kind of evidence is that?
Robinson? Great, okay, so we have to believe that Armstrong told him all of these things, great, he showed him his log of you know what too. "See, I keep a diary." What if HWA confided in this guy, 'hey I struggle with the flesh too?' What kind of minister is/was Robinson to reveal this kind of stuff if Herb was opening up to someone, 'you know, I am not that perfect, I sin, you know.'
Still, none of this is hard core proof. None of it at all. Give us more.
"Vern Mattison confirmed..."
Give us the proof that Vern Mattson (not Mattison) confirmed anything. Please.
"We sincerely wish that we could report uncovering evidence to negate Mr. Robinson's charges...."
The evidence to prove the charges is what is at stake here. We have an accusor, who was just accusing, Trechak was not a court of law but that of public opinion. "no one has stepped forth to disprove or deny allegations, we wish they would, if they do not, well, they must have, we think, we know, we hope really so we can destroy people, really, that is what we want to do since we cannot outright kill someone, let's accuse them and see if they disprove it to us....go ahead, I dare you, disprove me....'
Still, no evidence here, Neo, you are much smarter than that.
Seems to me that even with evidence of what old Herb wrote that makes him a liar and worse, cannot shake those true Armstrongites into taking the blinders off to see the "TRUTH". Herb lied about dates, he made so many prophecies that never came true and yet i see a poster here that talks about one that just might, just maybe have a chance of coming true. I or anyone else (even a 7 year old who does not understand the bible), can make more accurate predictions with a far greater percentage of right ones than Herb ever could. I know my 7 year old years ago when i was just playing around with her, proved this to me. Just like that Non-existant PT Spanky and his gang used recently in their Tommorows World Mag to uphold Herb as a great true prophet of the Almighty God.
To those who want to all to put up or shut up, i would ask then for the proof that Herb did not set dates, that he did not commit adultery, that he was never a part of the Church of God seventh day , that he never received a paycheck from them. I think you get the picture.
rod 2
>>>Anonymous said...
REGARDLESS OF WHAT HWA DID
<<<
Your caps indicate you are screaming. mellow out with a valium!
>>>Armstrongite said...
Can't destroy the message, go after the messenger.<<<
What about 209+ "errors" herbie made?
There should be a "lemon law" about false pro$its!
http://www.herbertwarmstrongvideo.
net/HWA_False_Prophet
Sorry, I should have said Ned is smarter than that......sorry.
Herbert Armstrong must have had some interesting "Psycho History" as a kid.
It is a known fact that children who abuse animals often grow up to become abusers in other ways. An interesting tid-bit from the very first installment of the HWA autobiography which appeared in the Sept. 1957 edition of the Plain Truth. This particular section was EDITED OUT of the 1967 book edition and later editions of the autobiography...
HWA writing of his early childhood...
"Our barn in Union was badly infested with rats. I determined to do something about it. I obtained a large rat trap cage down at the hardware store and almost every morning I had a large number of rats in the cage…
I took some kind of fiendish delight by gradually drowning those rats in the rain barrell, by lowering the cage into the water."
http://www.herbert-w-armstrong.org/indexPT1950.html
I have had Armstrong relatives tell me personally that "it" the allegations were true.
I have never heard anyone ever deny it straight up, whether it was RCM or GTA including HWA himself.
I personally was in the Auditorium in the early 1980s, at the time when the accusation of incest was made public, that HWA in some random thoughts during a sermon said something like..."Brethren, there are accusations against me that are so hideous that I will not justify them by commenting on them"
He did not deny it, he simply refused to comment.
Lussenheide
I will give you three prophecy trends that Herbert W. Armstrong gave the Church which have come true. Perhaps not in the time frame that we all expected them to come to pass, but they have in deed come true:
1. Children shall be your oppressors - look at the daily news and see the serious crimes being committed by "out of control" young people. The juvenile justice system can't keep up with the crimes.
2. Women shall rule over you - try telling the father whose wife runs off with another man and then sues him for child support from the broken home that this prophecy hasn't come true for him. The family court system is anti- father. Why do think there is a growing father's rights movement in America if this one prophecy hasn't come true?
3. The Modern Romans - America is the largest debtor nation in the world. Our stadiums and TVs entertain us while America goes bankrupt. Our dollars are becoming worthless, and require many many more dollars to purchase the same goods and services that we paid much less years ago. A case in point, a house in my neighborhood that costs $500,000 in today's real estate market could be purchased for $18,000 45 years ago. Same house, but it takes many more dollars to purchase today because the value of the dollar has declined.
America is, in deed, the modern Romans as the Armstrongs taught us and we are quickly going bankrupt.
The above three are HWA/GTA prophecy trends that have come to pass in our lifetimes. Take a good look at the overall trends in America and the world today, and you will find much of what the Armstrongs preached are in deed coming to pass - just not in the timeframe that we all (including Armstrongs themselves) expected.
If someone were to accuse me of molesting my own daughter, she would be the very first person to jump to my defense. I think it is reasonably safe to say that any daughter who has a healthy, proper relationship with her father would likewise act in a similar defensive manner.
As I have said before, the mere fact that HWA's daughter NEVER ONCE denied the accusations is proof enough for me.
I wish I could say that I have such fond, happy memories of my time in the WCG cult.
Unfortunately, I was born into the cult and never had any choice in the matter until after I was able to escape from home. Failure to obey, especially in anything church-related, was met with a swift beating. I lived in constant fear of getting hit. The uncertainty of not knowing when you will get hit is far, far worse than the actual beating. The psychological damage lasts so much longer.
My memories consist of being tormented at school, of being harassed by my parents to do better when I was already doing my best, of being bombarded with horrible grotesque images about the Great Tribulation nearly every week, of constantly being told I was never good enough, of my mind being polluted with toxic notions about how relationships between men and women were supposed to work according to the church.... the list goes on and on.
I couldn't have any friends from school because they were "of the world", but most of the kids in my local congregation were a**holes and exhibited far, far worse character than most of my "worldly" classmates. As a result, I grew up without properly learning how to interact with people my own age. To this day I still have trouble making friends and developing relationships with others from the opposite sex.
I would gladly trade the few random happy memories of WCG for a normal upbringing in a positive, healthy family attending a positive, healthy congregation.
The WCG robbed me of much happiness and joy during what was supposed to be the best part of my life -- my adolescence. The worst part is that the damage WCG caused, particularly in regards to my ability to form relationships (with anyone, male or female), still affects me even today. How does one overcome 30 years of bad social programming?
"As I have said before, the mere fact that HWA's daughter NEVER ONCE denied the accusations is proof enough for me."
Well, have you ever talked with her? Where was she all those years? Who knows. How could someone deny something when she was never around. You make it sound like a CNN news item where you are expecting the daughter of someone famous to step forward before the cameras.....I mean really folks, are we that melodramatic to expect this type of junk. Please.....
Annonymous in the post immediately above this one, says why didnt the daughter step forward.
This is quite naieve.
The Armstrong Empire had every reason to have her step right up and deny the rumors. She didnt even have to "go before cameras" as you imply. All she would have had to do was provide her Father with a notarized statement saying "It wasnt so"
Armstrong was well known to pay hush money or "set someone up well in order to shut up" ala Meredith in Hawaii in the early 80s or Stan Rader and his $200,000 a year severance package for life.
However HWAs daughter wouldnt come forward and offer even a signed notarized paper denial, in spite of it being potentially very lucrative for her to do so financially.
So just another puzzle piece.
Incidentally, it was once rumored that the "confession" was on tape and owned by one Floyd Lochner. Anyone have any information about this or is that apocryphal??
Lussenheide
Anonymous said...
Our dollars are becoming worthless, and require many many more dollars to purchase the same goods and services that we paid much less years ago.<<<
I just have to say, thank God for Wal-Mart! Everything is more affordable. Even the so called poor in America live high on the hog!
Let me say this Anonymous. I will be generous and give herbie those three. Now what about the other 206+ "errors?"
Anonymous said...
Well, have you ever talked with her? Where was she all those years? Who knows.<<<
CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE - Circumstantial evidence is best explained by saying what it is not - it is not direct evidence from a witness who saw or heard something. Circumstantial evidence is a fact that can be used to infer another fact.
Indirect evidence that implies something occurred but doesn't directly prove it; proof of one or more facts from which one can find another fact; proof of a chain of facts and circumstances indicating that the person is either guilty or not guilty.
E.g., If a man accused of embezzling money from his company had made several big-ticket purchases in cash around the time of the alleged embezzlement, that would be circumstantial evidence that he had stolen the money. The law makes no distinction between the weight given to either direct or circumstantial evidence.
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c342.htm
Circumstantial evidence is used in criminal courts to establish guilt or innocence through reasoning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Circumstantial_evidence
Human reasoning. Some have it, others don't!
"The Armstrong Empire had every reason to have her step right up and deny the rumors."
No they didn't, not many even talked about it until years later, even in Pasadena it was not a big thing. There was no need because most people did not read the rag AR and the crappy Robinson book, no one read it, no need to talk about or deny anything, because so few even talked about it or wanted to even know. That may be another issue though.
"Circumstantial evidence is used in criminal courts to establish guilt or innocence through reasoning."
Firstly, I will ignore your snide human reasoning comment for a later time. However, for Circumstantial evidence to have any basis, there has to be enough evidence. What we have here is total hearsay, which is never allowed in court. HEARSAY, lets reason about that humanly....HEARSAY.
"E.g., If a man accused of embezzling money from his company had made several big-ticket purchases in cash around the time of the alleged embezzlement, that would be circumstantial evidence that he had stolen the money...."
This is what I am talking about, there is no evidence like this, nothing, it is all accusation, hearsay and rumor. No one has admitted to anything.
You guys are the types that even if she came out and denied it, you would say it was a cover up, she is in denial, shaming, all kinds of stuff. Because you just can't let it die, you don't know, you can't prove it because there is no evidence. Even Loosenhide saying I heard a relative say, who, what relative, what did they say, exact quote from whom. Please Mr. Bill. Please. Help us.
Annonymous above:
I was in Pasadena at the time.
It did travel around, and was known. Albeit in hushed tones and within circles of confidants. Many were shocked as well when a few years later this issue was addressed in Superior Court papers within the public domain during the Ramona/HWA divorce.
Like I stated above, HWA himself addressed the basic issue of the rumors in a sermon IN THE AUDITORIUM.
And I testify that I was there that day in the auditorium for that sermon and his offhanded remarks concering the rumors.
Lussenheide
Kscribe,
Thanks for being generous. It is refreshing that someone would stand up for Wal-Mart!
Another trend that goes with the declining value of our dollars is that the "two income" family is norm now. Forty years ago, one income (the father's) was the norm to support an American family. Today, it takes two incomes to support a family and that is the norm. Why? Because our dollars buy less and requires more dollars to support than same standard of living 40 years ago.
Oh sure, you can get some good deals at WalMart, but what about the price of housing, college educations, retirement, health care and cars to name a few.
America's financial condition is the big white elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about. And, it parellels exactly with the conditions prevalent with the fall of the Roman empire exactly as the Armstrongs taught in their booklet, "The Modern Romans".
And, you want to talk about 206+ other "errors"????
I only need three words to prove HWA was a false prophet: "1975 in Prophecy".
"No they didn't, not many even talked about it until years later, even in Pasadena it was not a big thing."
Um, yes we did. I heard the incest allegations back in the early 1980s, and I knew of several WCGers who had heard of the allegations. I'm pretty sure all the ministers knew about the allegations.
"There was no need because most people did not read the rag AR and the crappy Robinson book, no one read it, no need to talk about or deny anything, because so few even talked about it or wanted to even know."
My dad and my uncle read a little of AR, although they didn't read the Robinson book.
It's true, though, that the allegations we not talked about in the WCG. Many of us knew about them, but it was all hushed up, and like you, we convinced ourselves that they were just a filthy smear invented by the Minions of Satan to try to destroy the One True Church.
No one talked about it, and the WCG and Herbert Armstrong and his daughter Dorothy never denied the allegations, and never sued anybody for publishing the allegations.
These paragraphs from "Honey, I Shrunk the Church" are well worth remembering:
http://rickross.org/reference/wwchurch/wwchurch1.html
According to former church officials, and the founder's own grandson, Richard David Armstrong II, Herbert's younger daughter, Dorothy, began to tell family and friends during the '70s that, years earlier, her father had molested her. John Tuit, an ex-church member living in North Carolina, recalls Garner Ted Armstrong telling him of his sister's startling revelation and that Herbert had not denied it when his son confronted him.
The allegation surfaced publicly in a book written by David Robinson, a former Worldwide minister in Oklahoma. The church tried unsuccessfully to suppress it. Robinson recounted a bizarre late-night conversation with the then-widowed Herbert during a church festival in the Poconos. Armstrong, who had been drinking, was alleged to have confessed to Robinson that he had molested his daughter between 1933 and 1943. Then, to the astonishment of the younger minister, Armstrong was said to have produced a small black book in which he had carefully documented the many times he had masturbated, a practice he had frequently railed against from the pulpit. "It was a shattering experience for my dad," says Mark Robinson, a Dallas-area businessman, whose father died in 1995. "Until then, he had no reason to doubt Mr. Armstrong's spirituality."
The issue arose again in 1984, during divorce proceedings between Armstrong and his second wife, Ramona Martin, a former switchboard operator 46 years his junior. The breakup, after seven years of marriage, was nasty. Armstrong, playing hardball, had accused her of stealing church property and was pressing criminal charges while refusing to bend to Ramona's demands for a large settlement, including a large amount of cash and the couple's sprawling ranch-style home in Tucson, Arizona. Until, that is, shortly before a court hearing at which her lawyers had threatened to introduce a purported "understanding" between Herbert and his wife regarding the alleged incest. The divorce was quickly settled to Ramona's satisfaction, and the criminal charges were dropped.
Annonymous wrote:
"Even Loosenhide saying I heard a relative say, who, what relative, what did they say, exact quote from whom. Please Mr. Bill. Please. Help us."
MY RESPONSE:
Someone who doesnt have the "gravitas" or "huevos" to tell us his/her name challenges me to me more forthcoming! LOL!
In order to protect this Armstrong family member from a barage of crap and or questioning from wusses like you, this is the best you are going to get from me...
I solemnly confirm that my statements made in this edition of the AW Blog are absolutely true.
And if that aint good enough, well, then "take a hike"
Luv
Lussenheide
"even if she came out and denied it"
We'll deal with that when it happens.
It still hasn't happened. Wonder why that is?
No, it's not conclusive proof, but it sure is suspicious.
Well, it is sad indeed if it is true that HWA abused his daughter and I disagree with the person who said it doesnt change the message - especially since people had him on a pedestal to the point where even his suggestions were taken as absolutes because he was God's apostle and couldnt be wrong.
However, what all need to realize is that what doesnt change is what the book says and what we are expected to do. That hasnt changed one iota regardless of what HWA or any other minister did.
Silence
1.) The armstrong incest thing has been beaten to death...Those still in armstrongism are either hearing it for the first time or will never believe it as long as they believe in armstrongism.
2.) As far as "Door #2" goes; I'm with you brother. I'd rather burn in the lake of fire than spend one second in eternity second to anyone I ever knew in the WCG.
3.)Proof? You could produce a certified / notorized copy of the court transcripts of the Herbie / Ramona divorce to a true armstrong believer and they would simply dismiss it as a false instrument of the devil.
4.) Europe: Give me a f'ing break. The Euro is still worth about 25 cents more than the American dollar and they still are basically a side show. India and China are kicking our (America's) and Europe's a$$ economically. Europe hasn't been able to agree on anything as a continent in almost a 1000 years...America hasn't been able to agree on anything since the Eisenhower Administration...We came close during the Reagan era but not quite. Bush - Well, I don't really need to go into that.
5.) Someone posted on this blog some time ago that people will believe anything posted about GTA but regard HWA as a saint no matter what is exposed about him...Well, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me"...'Nuff said...and don't give me any crap about proof...There is more than enough evidence to brand herbie a heretic as well as a con man...and I'm not talking about his daughter.
6.) Cognitive Dissonance...I love that term. I was a member of the WCG for 24 years...I have never been able to reconcile the god of the old testment with the Jesus of the New. If anyone else is able to, I'd love to hear how.
7.) Dorothy Mattson: Can we drop this? Once and for all? Is it not much more satisfying to beat armstrongism for its theological failings than it is to discuss Herbert the Pervert forcing himself on his daughter? It is not only disgusting, but it matters not to any member still entrenched in armstrongism...even those who admit it may be true.
8.) For those of you still in any one of the COG's: At what point do you free yourself??? How many fales prophecies / predictions must pass not only errantly but not even close before you wake up? How many doctrines will you adhere to without any biblical basis? You all claim to not follow a man, but I challenge you here and now for you to prove you do not!
A fool wrote:
"Well, have you ever talked with her? Where was she all those years? Who knows. How could someone deny something when she was never around."
The darling loving daughter lived in a church owned home in LaCrescenta, about 10 miles from Herb's home. Big Daddyo paid to keep his daughter in a nice home with tithe money. That also around the time Lord Merrydeath was using third tithe to remodel his hiome on Waverly Drive.
"There was no need because most people did not read the rag AR and the crappy Robinson book, no one read it, no need to talk about or deny anything, because so few even talked about it or wanted to even know."
That's a lie if there ever was one! The Tangled Web was talked about all over the place. You could not even find one locally because they were always sold out. Bungalow News sold them along with the AR. It was passed about by employees and was well read.
Whatever people think, I have my own belief. My mom has close relations with the Armstrong family. She considers it true. She has good reason to believe it. She heard it from the family.
Of course, many true believers would have to see a video of Herb and his daughter in embrace in order to believe it, and even then, would probably not believe it.
HI LUSSENHYDE!
If you are unhappy here I'd sugggest you whine to Ron Dart, the cult guru, about how so many naughty people just don't UNDERSTAND the TRUTH, like you do!
When i was out there , the Tangled Web and AR was prominent on campus in Pasadena. Lots of students had read the AR and a lot more had read at least portions of Tangled Web. So it was known and was seen on one of the students desk by an instructor. Surprisingly nothing at that time happened to him. So to say as some have that it was not well read is just not true.
rod 2
as I have said many times....those whose focus is on the man are the ones who fall away....
those whose focus is on God won't let the failings of a man drive them away from God's clear teachings in the bible.
does anyone know of a perfect man in Church leadership anywhere in the world?...ever?? (other than Jesus, that is)
I guess there is a difference between those drawn in by HWA, and those drawn in by God the Father.
think about it.
Amen. Do David's crimes negate the fact that he could be and was used of God?
If you follow a man, you WILL be disappointed.
As Paul said, follow me AS I follow Christ.
Respectfully,
Anonymous
brave anonymous poster said...
as I have said many times....those whose focus is on the man are the ones who fall away....
those whose focus is on God won't let the failings of a man drive them away from God's clear teachings in the bible.
does anyone know of a perfect man in Church leadership anywhere in the world?...ever?? (other than Jesus, that is)
I guess there is a difference between those drawn in by HWA, and those drawn in by God the Father.
think about it.
I can't believe some of the posts which I'm reading! Some seem to feel that the so-called 18 restored truths are all valid, yet somehow their messenger may or may not be corrupt.
Many people, vastly more learned than Herbert W. Armstrong, have constructed exegetics in different ways. Following these with an open mind leads one to completely different conclusions as to what is required of Christians today. Knowing no other way, if you string scriptures together in the manner prescribed by HWA and his followers, you are going to believe that Armstrongism is the the truth of God, and you will continue to evaluate any other information which comes to you in this light. Obviously, any other religious system will be rejected if this is your mindset, because your Armstrongism, at least in your own mind, constitutes the ultimate criteria or standard which you utilize to judge and discern. You must remember that before HWA "proved" anything in his articles or lectures, he would always very carefully frame the discussion, establishing specific boundaries so that his "proof" would be the only logical conclusion possible. Whoever gets to frame the argument is always going to win the argument, a fact well known to salesmen and advertising executives. Once you accepted his basic framework, you inadvertently found yourself agreeing with his conclusion. Most of the people who have been part of the ACOG movement are totally unable to deconstruct such methodology, and therefore have no ideas what has been furtively done to them.
I found out about the Tangled Web, and the incest allegations for the first time in 2002. At that time, I had been out of the WCG for 27 years, having realized that HWA was a Deut. 18:22 prophet, and that the proofs and doctrines of the WCG were not the rock solid and immutable structure which we were led to believe. The incest thing was interesting in retrospect, but had had no bearing whatever on my decision to leave WCG.
BB
Chuck said:
"To those out there who will bitch and complain about the 10% tithes + offerings you were "forced" to pay, think of it as a country club membership + gratuity."
If we had not really believed the doctrines of the wcg we would never have joined it. Therefore, it wasn't a "choice" like joining a country club.
We were forced to pay 20% tithes not 10% and third tithe year and offerings added to the burden.
Imagine people anguishing over how they were going to pay their light bill and eat at the same time. Because the tithes *had* to be paid first, so as to not *rob* God.
The ministers knew the problems the poor in the wcg were having but still insisted on those tithes and offerings and had no mercy on the poor whatsoever.
You know full well that we couldn't just choose to leave the cult. That would mean being cut off from God and going to the lake of fire, not to mention being victims of the great tribulation etc.
On top of that, you lose all your family and friends still in the cult. Leaving was not an option.
However, when it did become an option I ran, not walked, away from that cult. It may have been a big social club thing for you, rich boy, but for many of us it was hell on earth.
"Those who focus on a man are the ones who fall away."
The standard Armstrong-inspired expression of concern, steeped as always in the height of arrogance: "Understanding that you've FALLEN AWAY, let's talk."
No, thanks.
Corky said: "If we had not really believed the doctrines of the wcg we would never have joined it. Therefore, it wasn't a "choice" like joining a country club.
You can't have it both ways buddy!
You admit you CHOSE to join the Church but then couldn't choose to leave. "It wasn't an option" you say. Have some cojonas and take some of the blame yourself.
It may have been tough to leave. But, certainly it was a predicament you brought on yourself...however misguided it was to those who chose to respond to that telecast or Plain Truth.
I'd be upset too if I was silly enough to CHOOSE to follow HWA. If anyone has a 100% pure right to bitch and complain it is those of us who were BORN into the Church. We didn't have a choice. You did.
Corky said: "However, when it did become an option I ran, not walked, away from that cult. It may have been a big social club thing for you, rich boy, but for many of us it was hell on earth."
A. I'm no rich boy, just someone who bailed during early adulthood...and yes, I do have a few fond memories.
B. How was it exactly that it "became an option" for you to leave when it wasn't before? I'll tell you. YOU WOKE UP, grew a backbone and an independent mind!
Hey Corky, Try the following:
Step 1: Look at your right palm
Step 2: Slap your forehead with it
Step 3: Ask yourself why you didn't leave sooner than you did.
Step 4: Save the pity party, and take some of the blame yourself!
I think Homer Simpson has a word for this moment of revelation about HWA....DOH!
I'd laugh, but I've been there too.
"Hey Corky, Try the following:
Step 1: Look at your right palm
Step 2: Slap your forehead with it
Step 3: Ask yourself why you didn't leave sooner than you did.
Step 4: Save the pity party, and take some of the blame yourself!"
Actually, I did that. I was only about 14 years when I got involved in the wcg. Pretty close to being born into it, my mother was involved in it before me. It happened that I was baptized before her but that's the breaks, I suppose.
It only took me about 5 years after being baptized to wake up.
I didn't slap myself on the forehead though. I pictured this balloon over my head with a picture of a lollipop that said "sucker" on it.
Then I said, "I must have been insane". Thus my screen name in Delphi forums, "insane1".
To read more, click on my name and it will take you to my archived website.
As someone who was born into the Church, it is impossible for me to have perspective on WHY IN THE WORLD someone would choose to follow HWA by choice???
I would like to think it would have been fairly easy for me to recognize HWA for the dommsdayer that he was, and simply flip to the next radio station, or discard the Plain Truth after seeing it for the first time.
I mean this with all sincerity,
What was the appeal? How did so many "intelligent" grown adults fall victim, to ideas that were are so obviously "out of left field?"
I can appreciate how difficult it must be to leave for someone who has adhered to HWAism for decades and sacrtificed there lives for it. Its almost like, "Well, we've done it for this long. No turning back now!"
But what about the moment of choice, diving into the Church in the first place? That choice is what doesn't compute in a mind (at least mine) that was born into WCG.
"I guess there is a difference between those drawn in by HWA, and those drawn in by God the Father."
The real question, though, is whether or not it would be a good thing to worship a God who would draw someone into Herbert Armstrong's religion. I'm not aware of any evidence that God has ever done that, and it might make one question God's existence to know that He had done that. God is supposed to be on the side of truth and holiness and goodness, not error and self-righteousness and legalistic tyranny (not to mention deadly anti-medical buffoonery).
Lussenheide said...
Annonymous in the post immediately above this one, says why didnt the daughter step forward.
This is quite naieve.
The Armstrong Empire had every reason to have her step right up and deny the rumors. She didn't even have to "go before cameras" as you imply. All she would have had to do was provide her Father with a notarized statement saying "It wasnt so"
Armstrong was well known to pay hush money or "set someone up well in order to shut up" ala Meredith in Hawaii in the early 80s or Stan Rader and his $200,000 a year severance package for life.
However HWAs daughter wouldnt come forward and offer even a signed notarized paper denial, in spite of it being potentially very lucrative for her to do so financially.
So just another puzzle piece.
Two obvious errors appear in this post, and ironically they are connected to each other.
Stan Rader was not paid hush money for life. His contract called for a golden parachute in the event of Stan's contract being prematurely ended and it was paid only through the end of that contract. This was a contract signed by HWA under full disclosure. There was good reason for such a contract provision because HWA had fired Al Portune, Jack Bickett and others for failing to sign off on illegal financial transactions of the WCG. Jack Kessler himself resigned over refusing to put his name on line for an illegal transaction, benefiting the Armstrong family.
Jack Kessler told me, that contrary to the entry on wikipedia about Stan Rader, and rumors spread by salary jealous ministers, Stan did not get fired for suing Lucas and Spielberg with Dr Kuhn over stolen scripts for the plot Indiana Jones and Ark of the Covenant.
Think about it, the WCG might disfellowship a member for having contact with an ex-member, but it would be Stan's precise job as Chief Legal Counsel to deal with ex-members. As it would for Helge. Ex-members were often suing the church. So why would HWA fire him for talking to Kuhn?
Stan got fired for refusing to sign off on a real estate transaction transferring a Church owned Pasadena property at below market rates to Herbert's daughter.
As Jack said, "after HWA won the receivership battle, he got even more bold with what he did with funds".
HWA kept his daughters well paid to remain quiet. As the French say, silence is consent.
We need to repent of our evil ways, and acknowledge Herbert W. Armstrong as the Apostle of God, the Elijah to come. He turned the hearts of the fathers to the sons as prophesied in Malachi's message.
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. The carnal mind is an emnity against God.
But, this gospel of the kingdom - God's work of witnessing and warning to this earth - shall be preached in ALL the world, and then shall the end come.
Send money to headquarters for the building fund, only after you have paid your 1st tithes and offerings (and, 3rd tithe if applicable). TIME IS SHORT. Mortgage your house and send the money to headquarters to finish the work - the final push, the final gunlap.
Some of you just don't get it! You didn't get it then, and you still don't get it now. You will never get it!
I only need three words to prove HWA was a false prophet: "1975 in Prophecy".
Therefore the Paul was a false teacher when said "we which alive shall be caught up together with them [the resurrected ones] in the cloud"?
Mr Armstrong committed incest
Proof?
gossips, conjectures, somebody else said this or that.
Mr. Armstrong must be someone unforgettable that everyone could not seem to rest without attcking him [till kingdom come]. This blog, with its noble mission of keeping hatred for HWA alive, is a clear testimony to that.
It is as if Mr. Armstrong is of such top priority in the minds of you people - in a negative way, that is. More important than God, it seems.
Gavin, you are doing a great
job of enslaving people to this gall of bitterness. You surely will not be without your reward.
- from a suspected "Armstrongist"
This feels like deja vu all over again.
Yeah. Imagine that! Some of the zombies coming here to tell us we're the ones who are enslaved, just because we are indulging in a little "live" therapy. That's even worse than deja vu. You might call it vuja de.
"It is as if Mr. Armstrong is of such top priority in the minds of you people"
That remark reminds me of the Palestinian terrorists blaming Israel for the terrorists' desecration of the Jewish synagogues of Gaza, saying the Jews deliberately left those synagogues so make Palestinians look bad when the world saw them wallowing in anti-Semitic rage. Herbert Armstrong is the central, pivotal figure of your religion, but you say he's the central figure for us ex-Armstrongists because we point out that there are some pretty good reasons that he shouldn't be the pivotal figure of your religion.
Deja Vu, vuja de ... it all means the same thing. You do it and you're the fool.
Enslaved? Not me, my friend. I'm free as a bird and living the one life I DO have to the fullest. If others want to suffer in this life in hope of rewards in a hypothetical next life sold to them by some modern-day Elmer Gantry, well, they have my pity not my scorn.
God calls the weak of the world, the base things. Don't you remember when you were a base thing?
A man who puts his hand through the plow, and then looks back, is not worthy of the kingdom of God.
Enslaved? Not me, my friend. I'm free as a bird and living the one life I DO have to the fullest.
Yeah, free as you would like to believe it to be. But clearly, not free from a nagging and gnawing bitterness about the past, as this blog is succeeding in doing you and others.
Hey 3:01,
There was nothing to get - that's why HWA kept saying some of us don't get it. There was nothing to get!
I remember being called a base thing. It was usually when the WCG was about to ask for more money from the membership.
Yeah. Imagine that! Some of the zombies coming here to tell us we're the ones who are enslaved, just because we are indulging in a little "live" therapy. That's even worse than deja vu. You might call it vuja de.
And your "live" therapy is by continuing to dwell in the negative past?
It looks like we have a new movement here and a new gospel - gospel according to Gavin and his disciples: Live abundantly, by dwelling in the negative past.
"just three of the people who've supported the Herbert and Dottie account.
William Dankenbring.
Garner Ted Armstrong.
David Robinson.
If I bothered to go back and check Tangled Web or the old AR's the list would expand significantly.
These men weren't anti-COG. They were deeply conservative Bible-believers. Dankenbring is still preaching a version of Armstrongism.
These people have personal motives and ax to grind against Mr. Armstrong. Next envelope please.
Hi, Anonymous poster(who wrote, "These people have personal motives and ax to grind against Mr. Armstrong.")
Personally, I do find that having a sense of humor about the whole Armstrongist past is helpful. I'm not really a "disciple" of Gavin's, tho I do appreciate his insightful good natured lookings-at the package of beliefs and goings-on that flow from the church that Herb built.
There are many places that reflect the many different belief systems that disaffected WCG members have. Have you found such a place that you are comfortable in? If not, there may be folks here that can help.
Regards,
Mel
READING BETWEEN THE LINES-
HWA AUTOBIOGRAPHY VOL 2
I Meet Future Son-in-Law
Shortly prior to our summer trip to Chicago and Los Angeles in 1941, our younger
daughter had become engaged to Vern R. Mattson, a University of Oregon student. He
had joined the Marines and at the time we reached Los Angeles was in boot camp in San
Diego. Dorothy was then working in the office with the one secretary we had then
employed. She insisted on coming to Los Angeles while we were there, to visit Vern.
When she arrived, it was necessary for Mrs. Armstrong to take the train back to
Eugene, to help keep up the work in the office.
I drove Dorothy down to San Diego. It was the first time I had ever met Vern Mattson.
I was not sure I approved of the engagement. When he came to the car, he virtually
ignored me. I made some embarrassed comment in an effort to be friendly.
“Look, I’m not marrying you, I’m going to marry your daughter!” he snapped.
Mr. Mattson may be surprised when he reads this. He probably doesn’t remember it
now. He didn’t really mean to be rude -- he was in Marine boot camp -- and it has the
reputation of being REAL TOUGH. He was being put through the paces without being
spared, and his nerves were taut. Actually, as I learned later, he is one of the most
friendly men I ever knew.
I found him to be tall -- six feet three -- blond, and, as Dorothy insisted, the
handsomest man in the world. But with his boot camp haircut and baggy garb, he did not
appear quite that handsome -- to me. The war was to enforce a delay in their marriage for
a few years and when, after having been in the 1st Division U.S. Marines at Guadalcanal,
then in an Australian hospital, back to America and Officers’ School because of his
outstanding war record, and commissioned a second lieutenant, with grades at the top of
his class, the war finally was behind him. I do not want to get ahead of the story at this
juncture, but later on -- for some twelve to thirteen years -- Mr. Mattson served as
Controller of Ambassador College, and Business Manager of the Radio Church of God,
in charge of business and financial affairs.
QUESTIONS FOR CLASS: 1) Why would Mattson "virtually ignore" and snap at HWA, his future father in law, someone he had never met before?? 2) Does HWA in describing Mattsons appearance almost sound "jealous" ??
READING BETWEEN THE LINES - PART 2
FROM THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF HWA -VOL 2
So with Dorothy I drove to Hollywood, since KMTR was located in Hollywood. We
rented a small apartment within walking distance of the station….
(A couple of months later)...As soon as school was out in early June, Mrs. Armstrong called me on the telephone from
Eugene.
“I’m sending Dick down to you on the next train,”
QUESTIONS FOR CLASS: 1) Doesnt it seem odd that Dorothy would be with HWA alone in an apartment, in Los Angeles, but he would leave his wife and sons back by themselves in Oregon??? Why the necessity of having Dorothy with him anyway and for what purpose?
2) Does it seem interesting that Mrs. HWA feels the necessity to send son Richard to be with Father and Daughter ?
Therefore the Paul was a false teacher when said "we which alive shall be caught up together with them [the resurrected ones] in the cloud"?
You are finally are starting to get it.
Paul was a false prophet. So was Jesus, who 2000 years ago frequently implied to his followers that the end of this world was near, despite also stating only the Father knew for sure.
And as far as Herbert Armstrong committing incest, there is more than enough circumstantial evidence which shows he did and which has already been listed above in postings by others. As I have said numerous times before, any daughter would jump to the defense of her father in the face of such an accusation if it were false. Dorothy NEVER ONCE defended her father. WCG also never sued to block publication of Robinson's book, despite having the financial resources to do so (and a track record of using lawsuits and the courts to silence dissenters).
I find it absolutely hilarious how Armstrong, who so many claim was the end-time Elijah that turned the hearts of children to their fathers, estranged himself from both his son and his daughter. Hypocrisy at its finest. The cult did a fantastic job of brain-washing in order to blind its membership to this and many other things.
And to all those HWA-worshippers who have written comments on this blog (on the Sabbath no less!!!) about how we are all bitter and stuck in the past -- just remember that this blog is a community and a form of therapy. If you don't like it, then get the hell out. This blog (actually its predecessor, AW) and Gary Scott's XCG helped rescue me from the misery of the COG cult world. I am absolutely 100% certain that if it weren't for this community, I would have become Terry Ratzmann at some point.
And because you don't know me or where I live, that means I could have been attending your congregation. Maybe I've even sat next to you before, or behind you and your wife and kids.
This blog might have just saved _your_ life as well as mine.
Think about that for a while.
Professor Lussenheide's test:
QUESTIONS FOR CLASS: 1) Why would Mattson "virtually ignore" and snap at HWA, his future father in law, someone he had never met before??
MY ANSWER: Uh...because Dorothy had told him about daddy crawling into her pants?
2) Does HWA in describing Mattsons appearance almost sound "jealous" ??
MY ANSWER: Herbie had a distorted perception of himself. He thought HE was tall(short man complex), and handsome. He probably was comparing Mattson to himself.
QUESTIONS FOR CLASS: 1) Doesnt it seem odd that Dorothy would be with HWA alone in an apartment, in Los Angeles, but he would leave his wife and sons back by themselves in Oregon???
MY ANSWER: Uh...yes.
Why the necessity of having Dorothy with him anyway and for what purpose?
MY ANSWER: To take care of his needs?
2) Does it seem interesting that Mrs. HWA feels the necessity to send son Richard to be with Father and Daughter?
MY ANSWER: Why didn't she send little Dicky with them in the first place?
How did I do on the test?
Steve K
"not free from a nagging and gnawing bitterness about the past"
OK, what have we here? Someone who doesn't know me, and has chosen to remain anonymous, is telling me I have a nagging a gnawing bitterness. How can this be?
Wait, I've got it! He MUST be psychic. That's it, I'm sure of it! Compared to Jonathon Edwards, Sylvia Browne and every other psychic, his record is equally accurate. In fact - better yet - his accuracy rate is equal to HWA's accuracy rate on his prophecies.
Thanks Anonymous! Keep those helpful insights coming!
And don't be embarrassed, tell us your real name. You really should get credit for your contributions to this discussion.
Post 4:19 said: "I find it absolutely hilarious how Armstrong, who so many claim was the end-time Elijah that turned the hearts of children to their fathers, estranged himself from both his son and his daughter. Hypocrisy at its finest. The cult did a fantastic job of brain-washing in order to blind its membership to this and many other things."
Let's not forget HWA's messy divorce and his use of the medical profession. The word "hypocrite" does come to mind.
Skeptic, your rants just betrayed you.
Post 5:38 said, "It looks like we have a new movement here and a new gospel - gospel according to Gavin and his disciples: Live abundantly, by dwelling in the negative past."
Well, Gavin's AW service is offered free of charge to the public. He does this as a service to the COG community. There is never any follow-up and no calls for money.
Armstrong's PT magazine and booklets were offered "free of charge" on radio and TV as bait until you became hooked (unless you were born into the WCG), then the WCG hounded you for money all the time and literally sucked the financial life out of you under the threat of eternal damnation.
So, which approach is more honest and better for you: Gavin's approach or HWA's approach?
Oh, the happy memories of the WCG that these postings have generated which is what this topic is suppose to be about.
What do we actually know about Vern Mattson? By the time I arrived at AC, Mattson was already gone, and Al Portune, Sr. was in charge of the financial affairs.
Was Vern Mattson ever a member of the WCG? Does anyone know why he left his position as comptroller at the then RCG?
HWA's other son-in-law, James Gott, had at one time been in charge of the AC Press facility. Once again, by the time I arrived at AC, Gott was out, and Tom Justus was running the church's printing operations.
I don't recall either of the Armstrong daughters ever being members of the RCG/WCG, but do remember HWA mentioning that he took one of his daughters overseas with him on several occasions in his later years, to assist in his visits with international dignitaries.
Hopefully, there's someone out there who can fill in some of the blanks with additional details.
BB
I would vote for Gavin's approach over HWA's approach, but I can't vote because I grew up in the WCG and was taught that voting was wrong.
So, which approach is more honest and better for you: Gavin's approach or HWA's approach?
Oh, the happy memories of the WCG that these postings have generated which is what this topic is suppose to be about.
I see that just got your dose of you own medicine and are quick to come to the defense of your minister of grudges. What good does recycling old gossips do to anyone? How much better and different is it than the Hollywood gossip? The only difference I see that it doesn't just entertain you - it clearly makes you feel better than the others.
There are better things to recycle than this decades old craps. Why don't you just stop feeding on it and get on with your lives and do something more constructive?
"Jared Olar said...
"even if she came out and denied it"
We'll deal with that when it happens.
It still hasn't happened. Wonder why that is?
No, it's not conclusive proof, but it sure is suspicious."
Jared, I think you need to stay out of this one until you come out against your own.
"If someone were to accuse me of molesting my own daughter, she would be the very first person to jump to my defense. I think it is reasonably safe to say that any daughter who has a healthy, proper relationship with her father would likewise act in a similar defensive manner. "
You act as if everyone were talking about this back then. They were not, it was not an issue even heard of within the WCG confines, why would she even know about it? It was not an issue in the church folks, no one outside of Robinson and AR were discussing this.
Thank you to
lussenheide for
READING BETWEEN THE LINES - PART 1 AND 2
You act as if everyone were talking about this back then. They were not, it was not an issue even heard of within the WCG confines, why would she even know about it? It was not an issue in the church folks, no one outside of Robinson and AR were discussing this.
This is blatantly false. Many, many people were discussing it and were well aware of the book, of AR, and of the accusations from the very beginning. This should be obvious just by reading some of the other posts above, and indeed several have already stated as much.
This is blatantly false. Many, many people were discussing it and were well aware of the book, of AR, and of the accusations from the very beginning. This should be obvious just by reading some of the other posts above, and indeed several have already stated as much.
Just because many people were gossiping about it then [and now!] does not make it true. Or is that how you produce "truth" -- by spreading a tale until it sounds so true. Remember Hitler?
The source of all those talks?
Obviously the disgruntled and disaffected people who recycled the same story with details added [from fertile imagination] as it passed from mouth to mouth.
Can you see it? This is exactly what this blog tends - if not endeavors - to accomplish. And many just relish the juicy bits that's fed them.
Some fun and entertainment indeed. At least it gives some temporary respite from hang-ups about the past that won't go away.
I really doubt that peace of mind can be achieved by this way of handling problems inflicted by others - as well by ourselves.
Folks, it is not too late to stop wasting your energy in this mad kind of exercise.
Yes, indeed, people were talking about it "back then." The people I originally referred to heard the news as far back as the early 1970s.
One individual heard from the co-worker of an Armstrong grandson, in Pasadena. The co-worker, a female, came back to their college dorm and was "visibly shaken," as the woman related it to me. Asking what was wrong, her friend related what he'd told her. They were in tears talking about it and it left them shaken and disillusioned. To my knowledge, neither of them finished AC. Both gradually left the church, college and everything else behind.
I came along a full 20 years later and, having just heard the news, simply asked her in conversation if she'd ever heard it back in her day. She paused, then said yes. She had never said a word to me about it, and only confirmed it because I'd asked. She, too, was a little surprised that I'd never known.
The point is, this was not just a bunch of gossip-mongers running around looking for things to snipe at. These were dedicated people, supporters of the cause, kind and gracious and as sincere as anyone. But the news shook them to their foundations, as it should have.
Those who trot out David's sins from the O.T. as a reason to gloss over this miss the point big time. In the context of Christianity, that story is accepted as part of a canon that God inspired and intended for us to learn from. The only thing any person has as evidence that HWA was chosen for anything is that he said so! Well, excuse me, but I'm deeply concerned by what he was engaged in at the time that claim began.
That's why the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. If people want to defend Sabbatarianism, or keeping the Law of Moses, or British-Israelism, OK, but it had better be on their own merits. There is simply no defense for saying any of it is so "because Mr. Armstrong said" this or that, and I find dismissive comments about this point to be both arrogant and insulting. Too many people gave too much for too long for him, his son, and his loyalists to have been so disingenuous -- and to continue to be so even to this day.
"Skeptic, your rants just betrayed you."
Christ, now I know how Jesus felt! Argh! I've been betrayed.
as someone said to me - How come he was saying he was like Elijah
turning the hearts of the children to the parents when his own family didn't have much to do with him or vice versa...
Anonymous said...
Another trend that goes with the declining value of our dollars is that the "two income" family is norm now. Forty years ago, one income (the father's) was the norm to support an American family. Today, it takes two incomes to support a family and that is the norm.<<<<<<<
So it take two people in a household to retain middle class income?
I live on a golf course in a large house. I am the sole breadwinner. I live the American dream.
Now, what do you mean by it "takes two?" It takes one. Education is the reason for my successes. Not blaming the government for all my problems!
Now, you wrote>>America's financial condition is the big white elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about. And, it parellels exactly with the conditions prevalent with the fall of the Roman empire exactly as the Armstrongs taught in their booklet, "The Modern Romans".<<<
Oh, exactly? Well maybe we should modify this statement of yours by the American vote. I vote to feed the armstrongites (not Christians) to the Islamic lions! Anyone want to second the motion? We can then make this law!
Now give me an example of this "conditions prevalent with the fall of the Roman empire" in the context you speak of.
Anonymous said...
Yeah, free as you would like to believe it to be. But clearly, not free from a nagging and gnawing bitterness about the past, as this blog is succeeding in doing you and others.<<
Who is bitter here? It is you! You cannot stand for your icon of holiness to be defamed. But facts are facts. People despise herbism and everything that goes with it!
Who can blame them. Once free from the armstrong nazi prison camp, people can once again recapture true values! The values they had before joining the child molesting, lying false prophet, Herbert W Armstrong's religious cult.
Below is a letter to a mentor and friend that I wrote recently:
Dear XXXXX,
Watching violent films is said to desensitize the human brain. When years of reading the "Good news" rag from what ever flavor cog's you might attend, it does seem that the members become "immune" to the onslaught of bad news of the present day world. All these members are taught, is that there is a "better" world to come were they will be rulers in the world of tomorrow! Years of negative teachings from the cult masters will and has resulted in tens of thousands of human beings that have lost touch with the reality of being human! When you are desensitized to the human condition you loose all aspects of reality, with the basic concept of being human in it's self lost. The inability to make a personal opinion or decision without interference from the pulpit is classic brainwashing. You are dependent on the guru. To be a successfully ruler, one needs to be in constant contact with the "subjects" in order to understand the values (moral code) and needs of the populous. Instead the cult masters instill fear of the past and present day world that causes a paralysis of the human psyche that leads to the inability to make rational decisions. Hence the results seen in the LCG.
More violence will ensue as time goes by. Every action by the cult master will lead to a opposite, yet equal reaction. All in time. Consider this XXXXXX. A human being that makes the same mistakes year after year, decade after decade and does not learn by those mistakes is a classical case example of “insanity.” Shall we look at the journals of mans history for examples? A recent one that comes to mind is Heavens Gate. This cult taught self mutilation. Let us say that as a Heavens Gate member that you had sexual desires that caused your mind to deviate from the aspect of your taught religion. Your mind is moving into the aspect of true reality (sexual desires being a human norm) but these thought are lustful/sinful desires that must be suppressed. What can you do. Well first of all, you could look for a mate that would satisfy these desires. Second, the choice of a Heavens Gate member, would be to subject ones self to castration in order to bring under control the sexual desires that are causing a conflict with the gurus teachings. Let it be noted that Heavens Gate members did shun sexual contact. At least that was the official declaration. The guru has forced his will by doctrines of devils in order to maintain the group. Is it not interesting that those in the cog's claim liberty yet are slaves to their guru? How can future leaders of the “World Tomorrow” be qualified to lead the coming world Government of Jesus Christ if they themselves have not a clue to what realities of the present world are? The leaders of the future world know where humanity has come from. They have participated in “humanity” and understand the real world concept of such. The members have not participated in the human experience. They only shun and condemn it.
It is all the guru will allow. Hence, total control. “NO EXIT.”
“Any State or Organization that fails to recognize basic human rights and dignity is OBSOLETE.”
Kscribe.
Who can blame them. Once free from the armstrong nazi prison camp, people can once again recapture true values!
Free? Who? From what?
The fact that you keep reliving the past, and continuing to blame someone who had been dead for many years, speak loudly of a restless, unforgiving spirit. What it does is to free you [in your mind] of responsibility for the decision you made - and imprison you in a vivid memory of an unpleasant past.
Nobody dragged us to the WCG services and took money from our pocket. We voluntarily gave it, maybe out of fear of hellfire -- but still, it was our decision.
Okay, you think you were fooled all these years? Then stay away from it. Start afresh, find a better way. Get on with your life.
Constantly digging old tales - true or not - only open old wounds. It may give you temporary satisfaction at the thought of how base and despicable the old man was. But what does that accomplish for you? Pump your blood with adrenalin of anger? Not good for your health.
A more mature and healthy way is to admit your part in the problem, move on to the next chapter of your life. Live and let live.
Oh, just wait! You guys who think you're experiencing "God's Truth" for the first time will have your chance ten or twenty years from now to post your grievances. It's all a matter of time.
You'll get to have funny stories to tell too! In the meantime, keep laughing when people post that they were taught that Jesus would give them their diplomas in Petra, and other such ridiculous things.
I believe in delayed prophecy, too. The kind of prophecy that says you too will be left empty and used up by Armstrongism. You just don't know it yet.
BB
Nobody dragged us to the WCG services and took money from our pocket. We voluntarily gave it, maybe out of fear of hellfire -- but still, it was our decision.
That is bullshit -- I was dragged to church for 18 years by my parents. Refusing to attend was unthinkable and would have resulting in a near-lethal beating. I never had a choice. To this day I still bear the scars of watching doomsday videos during the FOT as a 4-year-old; I still remember throwing up one Sabbath morning after seeing a photograph of a mutilated African soldier in a Y.E.S. lesson.
I never had a choice. By the time I was able to get out, much of the damage had already been done.
That is bullshit -- I was dragged to church for 18 years by my parents. Refusing to attend was unthinkable and would have resulting in a near-lethal beating. I never had a choice. To this day I still bear the scars of watching doomsday videos during the FOT as a 4-year-old; I still remember throwing up one Sabbath morning after seeing a photograph of a mutilated African soldier in a Y.E.S. lesson.
I never had a choice. By the time I was able to get out, much of the damage had already been done.
And now you have a choice -- but you choose to lock yourself in the hateful past which you cannot turn back.
I understand what hurt can do. My own pastor abused me. I could have killed him and myself. Or I could forever curse him. But I chose to live a free and healthy life. Free from the "if-onlys" and "what-could-have-beens". Free from feeling of "ill-wiil". Free from a painful past.
I wish this blog is promoting the positives - instead of digging up and detailing unhelpful past.
We need to repent of our evil ways, and acknowledge Herbert W. Armstrong as the Apostle of God, the Elijah to come. He turned the hearts of the fathers to the sons as prophesied in Malachi's message.
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. The carnal mind is an emnity against God.
But, this gospel of the kingdom - God's work of witnessing and warning to this earth - shall be preached in ALL the world, and then shall the end come.
Send money to headquarters for the building fund, only after you have paid your 1st tithes and offerings (and, 3rd tithe if applicable). TIME IS SHORT. Mortgage your house and send the money to headquarters to finish the work - the final push, the final gunlap.
Some of you just don't get it! You didn't get it then, and you still don't get it now. You will never get it!
Since HWA is the pivotal personage in the Armstrongite religion (the Apostle, the master of exgesis, etc., the restorer of truth, etc.), the Armstrongite splinter groups should pool their money, hire some lawyers and investigative reporters and lay to rest the dastardly falsehood of HWA's incest.
This would do everybody a favor and firmly establish the foundation for their religious beliefs.
It would probably be a fairly easy thing to accomplish and should be done soon before everybody dies and nobody cares anymore.
Think of generation of Armstrongites yet to come that would benefit from this vindication and further apotheosis of Herbert.
Then all of us who believe the account is true will be put in our places and will have to treat Armstrongites with new respect.
What's not to like?!!
-- Neo
Anonymous said:
"We need to repent of our evil ways, and acknowledge Herbert W. Armstrong as the Apostle of God, the Elijah to come. He turned the hearts of the fathers to the sons as prophesied in Malachi's message."
Dang, that new Flurrybot 8.0 sure is pesky. Those tithes sent to Oklahoma have produced some especially tenacious zealots.
About "Alibi's Message"--How do you explain HWA's estrangement from his own offspring? Talk to your minister about it, then get back to us.
While your at it, ask about the "divorce and remarriage" doctrine, race-relations, and medical care. YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. And don't foget "1975 In Prophecy" or 34,35,36,38,42,44,49,52,55,....2012,2017,2040, or anything from dateline or 20/20. I hear they are out to "catch a predator". Hey, we should send 'em an email!
elijah to come (and I could get nasty with that last word!), ha-ha. Not even LCG or UCG dare to preach that crap. RCM says HWA did an "elijah-like" work. Thats a nice way to say "of course not, but keep sending me $$"
For those of you who pray, please pray for the Philadelphia Church of God and its members and the Flurries, by name--seriously--pray w/o ceasing! Pray that at first they go to LCG, then UCG, then go indie, then just go away.
They must truly be hurting!
Yeh, Flurry and PCG-what a piece of work - just check your brain at the door and you will do just fine,
rod 2
Anonymous PCGer said:
"We need to repent of our evil ways, and acknowledge Herbert W. Armstrong as the Apostle of God, the Elijah to come. He turned the hearts of the fathers to the sons as prophesied in Malachi's message."
Even if HWA did "turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons," how could that have been "prophesied" in Malachi's Message???
Flurry wrote it after HWA's death.
Wouldn't that simply make it an observation looking back...not a prophecy by Flurry???
Help me out here Dennis? This is such blatant proof of how misguided PCGers are.
I don't know where else to post this, but i see Britany Spears scrawled "666" on her bald head, said she was the "Anti-Christ" and MISTER Doctor Bobby Thiel says she is not the Anti-Christ. So does anyone know if "Britany" or "Spears" comes out to 666? I figure if Thiel says it ain't so, it must be true.
rod 2
Anonymous said...
"A more mature and healthy way is to admit your part in the problem, move on to the next chapter of your life."
Well I have gotten on with life but because I supported such an degenerate cult, I feel an obligation to help people out of the cult. I have been praised for my efforts, by those who have been freed! I take immense pride in my accomplishments!
You wrote...
"Nobody dragged us to the WCG services and took money from our pocket. "
True. But there is a term for this.
It is called "Undue Influence."
You wrote...
"Constantly digging old tales - true or not - only open old wounds. It may give you temporary satisfaction at the thought of how base and despicable the old man was. But what does that accomplish for you? Pump your blood with adrenalin of anger? Not good for your health."
No satisfaction battering a dead man. As far as anger, that is long, long gone. But then again, perhaps this blog is causing you to be upset. This WILL affect your physical and emotional health!
Perhaps you should just quit? Why do you stay and comment here?
By the way, do you have a name or did your parents name you Anonymous?
Kscribe (Ken)
Anonymous wrote.....
"I wish this blog is promoting the positives - instead of digging up and detailing unhelpful past."
The statement above should read "I wish this blog WOULD promote........
Thought you would like to know..
Ken.
The Apostle of God, Herbert W. Armstrong - The voice of him that cried out in the wilderness of religious confusion, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted , and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain;
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed (to those of you that just couldn't get it), and all flesh shall see it together.
poster 2:57 P.M. - Didn't you mean in your post to add "making" between the words "cried out in" and "the wilderness of religious confusion"?
rod 2
WHO IS MORE TO BLAME THE MAN WHO STARTED A RELIGION THAT EVENTUALLY GOT IN THE WAY OF GOD OR THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED IT. IT IS TIME TO GO BACK TO GOD. TIME IS SHORT
"JIM M said...
WHO IS MORE TO BLAME THE MAN WHO STARTED A RELIGION THAT EVENTUALLY GOT IN THE WAY OF GOD OR THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED IT. IT IS TIME TO GO BACK TO GOD. TIME IS SHORT"
And I say, HUMBUG! Give me liberty or give me death!
Kscribe (Ken)
And Kscribe was cast out into the Lake of Fire along with that old Serpent, Satan the devil, who deceives the WHOLE world.
Hey Gavin,
See what happens when you post a picture of HWA - it brings out the best in people!
"...who deceives the whole world."
I've never encountered a quoter of that scripture who seemed eager to include himself in the equation. Pity.
"Anonymous said...
And Kscribe was cast out into the Lake of Fire along with that old Serpent, Satan the devil, who deceives the WHOLE world."
Never happen Homer! But then again, maybe you should join me in death! http://herbertwarmstrongvideo.net
Click on the video with the title
"Gregorian - Join Me In Death"
Let us burn together in the toasty lake of fire!!!
Oh Joy,
French Fried Kscribe!
Anonymous said...
Oh Joy,
French Fried Kscribe! <<<
It make you want to just "eat me!"
Holy and True,
Rev.Kscribe
A brave anonymous poster said: "Jared, I think you need to stay out of this one until you come out against your own."
Where did you get the idea that I haven't condemned the numerous, shameful sins of Catholic ministers?
Not that the sins of Catholic ministers have any relevance to the probability that Herbert Armstrong molested his daughter. Also, thanks anyway, but I don't actually need your permission to talk about things pertaining to my Armstrongist past, and my conversion to Catholicism could hardly disqualify me from joining in this discussion if I see fit. That's just goofy talk.
Speaking on Dwelling on the Negative....
Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it....and that would be the most negative thing of all.
Do you really think those of us who left Armstrongism don't care about those of you still in it? What can be more positive than the the thousands of people attempting to reach out to you guys before you waste more of your time in that rathole.
Granted we all hold different beliefs now, we freely admit that. And that's healthy. That's normal for people in their spiritual search.
Don't confuse concern, with hatred and negativity. While you folks may consider us "lost" and be forbidden by your ministers from even eating your lunch with us, we'd all happily eat lunch with you. If anything, we know what its like to be there.
Although there are a lot of opinions published on this blog that I don't share - there is also a lot of truth to be realized. I've been associated with one COG or another for more than 38 years, and realized at an early age that while God may not be a respecter of men - the same was not true of a lot of ministers and AC grads!
I grew up "in the church", moved away from the church and reacquainted myself with the church during the past 38 years and I suppose the greatest truth I've learned is that at the end of the day, a person's salvation is truly a personal matter that must be worked out between that person and God. The adage that states "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" has never been proven more forcefully (to me) than in the organizational structure of the Worldwide Church of God and many of her splinter groups.
I choose to continue to attend services, keep the feasts, etc, because these things are important to me PERSONALLY in working out my own salvation, NOT because any man tells me to do it.
However, to all of the folks who seem to want to turn a blind eye to the many terrible, miserable and yes, UNGODLY things perpetrated on the "flock" by many self-serving individuals disguised as ministers, elders and deacons; please don't dismiss these people and their concerns - they were people who sat next to YOU in church, who scrubbed toilets in VFW halls where services were held, who drove all night to take YOUR kids to track meets and basketball tournaments, and made anonymous cash donations (in excess of tithes)so others could attend the FOT - only to realize that everything, from a physical standpoint, they viewed as almost too good to be true - truly was.
The second greatest truth I've learned, is that to place faith in man is faith misplaced. Most of the folks who post here have probably figured this out as well. That's not bitterness - that's reality.
To the folks who seem to post here regularly - at one time or another, we've all been fooled...we move on and try to make positive changes. However, to forget or ignore lessons learned (good and bad - COG and non-COG)would be a mistake. The lesson for all of us should be to pass on the good ones.
Thanks for letting me opine, and all the best to all of you.
Shawn
Thank you Shawn, I read your post.
Does a representative of God speak out of both sides of his mouth - and does a "corrupt tree bring forth corrupt fruit"?? My ears and many others were hardened to the tune of "get the message out and finish the work". Actually, what is the MESSAGE and what is the WORK????? I have not heard anything solid yet.
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