Quick, March 13 will be on us in just over a week's time, and it'll then be too late to pick up the special issue of US News & World Report entitled Mysteries of Faith: The Prophets at the news stands.
Here, in magazine format, condensed into 88 pages, is a primer on the prophets with a line-up of contributors that includes Jonathan Kirsch, Bruce Feiler, Bart Ehrman and Karen Armstrong. Don't be put off by the cover, which is obviously not designed with COG sensibilities in mind. This is a great introduction to the historical figures who loom so large in the Bible. Beyond this familiar territory there are articles on Islam's Quran and yes, even the world's most boring and derivative volume, the Book of Mormon.
So many people dive straight into the ravings of modern-day expositors, trumpeting some kind of "inside knowledge" - tithes and love offerings gratefully accepted. Instead, why not take a deep breath first and get the low down from these guys. The real story of the prophets is quite different from the impression you get listening to proof-texts on Saturday, or reading Tomorrow's World.
Articles focus on Abraham, Moses, David ("Playboy of the Ancient World"), and characters like Elijah, the Isaiahs (yes Virginia, there was more than one), Jeremiah et al. Then there's Jesus and Paul. For a little contrast, try the articles on Muhammad and Joseph Smith. A painless, cult-free education for a modest price. As is always the case, some articles are better than others, but on balance this single issue will do a lot more for your theological IQ than a year's worth of Greg Albrecht's Plain Truth (or a two year stack of Good News magazines).
71 comments:
This article was very well done and an excellent balance to the Funny-mentalists among us who read their newspapers as they read the Prophets.
One does have to wonder if, indeed, the charismatic clergy among them are not endeavoring to start something on the planet that they just know will lead to the Second Coming. I imagine they feel that they will be enshrined on High at that time and ruling over us all once and for all.
As said before, all they might get is a huge sanitation problem and no Jesus to help clean up.
The battel between the Priests and Prophets in the OT for control and dominance is apparent once you know what to look for. During the captivity, the priests edited many prophectic writings to inject falsehoods that would shift the power to them and not the prophets. After all, if a Prophet makes a false prophecy, he was to die.
It is why you find documents that we are lead to believe were written by one lone prophet containing so many unfulfilled and false prophecies. Humans inject things into the writings of others to make fools of them and prove them "false prophets" for their own Priestly ends. Add to this behaviors of the Prophets which today we might suspect are symptoms of personality disorders and "Houston...we have a problem."
The OT contains detailed "prophecies" written after the fact, which is why they are so detailed. The NT reaches back into the OT and constructs stories about Jesus based on scriptures that do not mean what the writer makes them to mean in their original context. Christians today are taught to overlook that on the grounds that it is spiritually deep. That's fine, as long as one knows that "spiritually deep" and "literally true" are not the same thing. It is wrong to enforce literal beliefs on people and rules drawn from that which is not literally true. (Example: Women are not to speak in church because they sinned first, or come from the rib of a man, which is not so much close to his heart as an insignificant part of which he has many to spare...no pun intended.) Hey! Women are spare ribs!
Sometimes sriptures are quoted that are not found in the OT and when quoted in the Greek, do not mean what they were intended to mean in the Hebrew. Some even combine into one verse what comes from two different verses in two different books. Great trick. An some mention a text from one book that really comes from another.
We have a bad habit of feeling that as long as a dishonesty or writing technique is thousands of years old and one we could not use today to prove anything with any personal credibility, it's ok. If I wrote about Jesus literal birth using the approach Matthew used to formulate tell what happened, no one would believe I knew what really happened. Actually no one really seems to know anything about Jesus literal birth circumstances, which is why we have fantastical stories written about him after he was an adult and dead. No one really waits at the hospital for a baby that will be famous to be born. Famosity comes with the adult who then needs a fantastic birth story to explain that adult. It's done all the time.
Jesus, the Galilean, who writes nothing in his earthly life does manage to receive Revelation from God and pass it on to John in perfect Greek, after his death.
At any rate, a good article and always glad to hear Karen Armstrong's perspectives. Uh oh...I'm still and Armstrongist!
I did a search online and came across an eye opening "Cult test"
It stopped me dead in my tracks.
The site examines why cults are so effective in controlling peoples minds and what common denominators are present in ALL "successful" cults.
As I struggle with the grip of Armstrongism over myself and those I love I owed it to my self to put HWA, WCG, and the splinters to this test.
What I found out was a shocker!!!
Out of the 100 rules and tactics set forth in the test, 99 out of 100 of the things listed were utilized by HWA and in WCG and its Splinters. (only #100 on the list, mass suicide, was not employed in WCG)
Check this study out at your own peril, if you ever want to see WCG as a unique organization full of "truth" again.
You'll see HWAism for what is really is, a slickly packaged and highly effective mind controlling cult...not that different from Scientology, Jim Jones, and other "scary" organizations.
CHECK OUT THE LINK:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_guru_right
Sorry I posted this right at the beginning of a new thread. But it opened my eyes.
Anonymous said...
I did a search online and came across an eye opening "Cult test"
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_guru_right
Oookay. Where do I go from there?
Steve K
My mistake. I punched it in wrong the first time.
Steve K
I know we are all wounded souls and tend to keep going back to all the personal hurts and cultic injuries, but the post is on the difference between the what one has been taught about the OT and the Prophets and how it really was.
Cult abuse will just rehash all the same stuff in all the other posts by all the same people.
From the "Cult Test":
41. Disturbed Guru, Mentally Ill Leader.
MY COMMENT: I don't believe the cult we were in had this. The guru knew exactly what he was doing, and didn't really practice what he was selling. It was just a scam. That doesn't take a mentally-ill person, just one who is calculating and deceptive. I'm not saying that Herbie WASN'T mentally-ill. He might have been, but he didn't exhibit mentally-ill characteristics...did he?
74. Trance-Inducing Practices
MY COMMENT: Did anyone ever practice this one?
Steve K
From the Cult test:
74. Trance-Inducing Practices
"In some cults, members spend too much time on mind-numbing trance-inducing practices like prolonged meditation, chanting, praying, or voodoo dancing. Hypnosis, repetition, monotony, and rhythm are often used to numb the thought processes of new recruits."
We are encouraged to study, meditate, and read only proof text literature for LONG hours and on a daily basis. And then fast ontop of that periodically!
Just the time alone we were supposed to commit was trance inducing.
FROM THE CULT TEST:
41. Disturbed Guru, Mentally Ill Leader.
Disturbed Gurus
Cult leaders are often charming, charismatic figures with above-average intelligence. The "charismatic charmer" is one their personalities -- a pseudo-personality.
Many cult leaders suffer from borderline, disassociate or multiple personality disorders. Members feel honored to be with, and be seen, around them. But their personality can change dramatically in a flash. Cult leaders are always very disturbed individuals. They are usually victims turned persecutor, having a history of involvement in other social, political or religious cults and/or suffering the effects of a traumatic childhood. Behind their strong and confident exterior (pseudo-personality) they need their leader position to compensate for a very fragile sense of self-worth, self-esteem and self-identity.
This is also shown by the fact that they cannot "hack it" in the real world and need to live in a cult/sect environment to live out their problems. Their past histories show social marginality and a tendency to drift from one cause to another, one cult to another, one job to another, one marriage to another, etc. They spend their lives dedicated to their cause (also, increasing through the Internet, now). They are obsessive-compulsive, fanatical and manipulative.
Nothing will stand in the way of their visions, schemes and self-glorification -- not even the well-being of their partners or children. They manipulate the minds of vulnerable members, extorting money and sexual favors and/or abusing them psychologically, physically and/or sexually.
Hmmmm, sounds a bit like HWA, his ministers and the splinter leaders!?
Okaaaayyy .... That's enough thread drift for now.
Dennis, excellent first response. You sure got up on your soapbox, and stated what is (now) so obvious. But back in my days as a WCG cult member, it was not obvious to me at all.
One mistake WCG made was to ready ancient documents with modern sensitivities. The bible was written mostly in the stone age and bronze age, by primitive people. Modern-day ethical concepts such as plagarism and citing sources were not even imagined back then. Heck, they hadn't even thought of putting spaces between the words, putting periods at the end of sentences, using capital and small letters and using vowels.
Until VERY recent times, a copyist of a text saw nothing wrong with "improving it" to say what is "should" mean, by his understanding of course. This as power shifted and beliefs changed, bible verses were altered, interpolations were inserted, lines were removed, etc. Bible scholars know this, as do all who study ancient documents. Hence we have hundreds of different versions of any given scripture, which teams of theologians needs to study to derive the "true" meaning in developing modern-day translations.
Changes were easy to make back then - illiteracy was rampant, many who were "literate" could scarcely read, and they all realized that no two versions of a text were the same and didn't expect them to be.
Skeptic...exactly. We credit cultic practices with way too much true God utterances. We failt to recognize a God that has power in the hills but not the valley.
Judges1:19 Yahweh was with Judah; and drove out the inhabitants of the hill-country; for he could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
It seems Iron chariots in the valley were a bit too much for the God of the Hills.
Few realize that to be able to name the god (as Moses wanted to know and Jacob insisted upon before he let "god" go), was to have power over the god. "God" was smart enough to say.."Tell them I am sent you" which is a kind way of saying "none of your business what my name is. I know that trick." From this we get giant "I am" doctrines that perhaps were never meant to be taken quite that way. However, we do not have "none of your business" doctrines :) Wish we had had more of that!
At any rate, it's a lot of work to see that stories were redacted and edited by priests and prophets alike to make their points as time went on and to put each other out of business which is why we have such ability to argue for two completely different doctrinal perspectives in both old and new testaments. Both contradictory beliefs are present in the mouths of the same person who is really not one but many or several at least. It's a game.
Dennis,
Aside from this US News article, have you come across any other online destinations that address this same topic??
"We are encouraged to study, meditate, and read only proof text literature for LONG hours and on a daily basis. And then fast ontop of that periodically!"
We were encouraged to study the Bible, fasting occassionally, prayer for sure, and mediation was based on what did in our lives, not a trance like meditation. This does not equate at all with WCG practices. Rediculous.
"We were encouraged to study the Bible, fasting occassionally, prayer for sure, and mediation was based on what did in our lives, not a trance like meditation. This does not equate at all with WCG practices. Rediculous [sic]."
We were to study the Bible within the parameters of understanding that the leaders set; we were to pray in a manner that the leaders described to us. Going through our lives within a pattern of
[non-] thinking is a form of trance. It takes us away from seeing full reality.
Meditation, by the way, does not necessarily lead to "trance", although certainly cultic groups and leaders may manipulate their followers to meditate in such ways. Essentially, meditation is meant to free the minds of practitioners from mental "sludge" and external distractions that cause illusion.
But for myself, and certainly for many others, sitting through long sermons by boring pastors (especially when the message got repeated ad nauseum that we are merely so many gallons of water and dirt, that's all we are) could put one into a trance--a trance of defense, in which the listener tunes out to save him-/herself a complete loss of self-esteem and independent-mindedness.
Chuck...I think you mean Gavin
This politicizing and redacting of scripture by priests, judges, scribes, and others certainly flies in the face of what we were taught as truth in WCG. I remember hearing stories of how scripture was painstakingly copied by scribes from one scroll to another, with the scribe often washing his hands each time he created a difficult letter or character, so that every perfect word would be preserved.
Within the past 5 years, I've even read posts by evangelicals who believe that the KJV of the Bible, with its extensive footnotes, is the most perfect preservation or rendering of the work of our forbearers.
Personally, hey, I have to remember that old gradeschool game of gossip, in which the teacher would whisper a phrase or sentence into the first student's ear, who would then repeat the process to the next in line. The goal was to give to the next person exactly what was given to you. Without exception, the last student would utter aloud something that was completely unrecognizeable to the first student.
Sorry Dennis.
Gavin,
Aside from the US News article, have you come across any other sources on the same or similar topic of the OT being written and rewritten by the prophets and judges?
I can't think of a more important topic as I try to make sense of the bible by giving the OT context.
http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/fprophet.html
Chuck, this is an interesting overview of what is wrong with the texts and how they contradict. He covers the the problems with the stories and shows very well, to me, the cobbled nature of familiar stories and the things we miss when we read them. You'll have to either ignore or cheer his Impeach Bush perspectives as well..:)
PS Of course I'm waiting for the "you've got to be kidding" on this sites observations about the canon, gospels and politics of the OT and New. I mean the guy also says he saw a UFO when he was 12 and it was in the paper.
Just be warned..Compared to what Ezekiel said he saw with wheels in wheels and full of eyes and feet and wings (astro-theology concerning God's throne in the heavens, the ecliptic, celestial equator, seasons, stars and quandrants of the heavens, at its best), his experience is harmless. I just happen to like the way the man explains something he, as others, see within the text itself and the politic behind the scenes. Take the interesting with the "oh brother." He explains nicely how to see behind the scenes of Bible contradictions that Fundamentalists spend endless time trying to reconcile as all true no matter what it says.
We need to repent of our evil ways, and acknowledge Herbert W. Armstrong as the Apostle of God, the Elijah to come. He turned the hearts of the fathers to the sons as prophesied in the book of Malachi.
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. The carnal mind is an emnity against God.
But, this gospel of the kingdom - God's work of witnessing and warning to this earth - shall be preached in ALL the world, and then shall the end come.
The end cannot come until this gospel has been preached in all the world.
Send your money to headquarters for the building fund, after you have paid your 1st tithes and offerings (and, 3rd tithe if applicable). TIME IS SHORT. Mortgage your house and send the money to headquarters to finish the work - the final push, the final gunlap.
This Work of God is the most important work on earth.
Some of you just don't get it! You didn't get it then, and you still don't get it now. You will never get it!
"I remember hearing stories of how scripture was painstakingly copied by scribes from one scroll to another, with the scribe often washing his hands each time he created a difficult letter or character, so that every perfect word would be preserved."
Saac's son, I too had this preached to me by a WCG minister. There is a kernel of truth to this - this painstaking method was adopted by the Jews around the year 200 AD (I'm taking this from memory, it could be off a bit, give or take).
However, what they DIDN'T say, and perhaps didn't realize, was that all through the Old Testament era there were no such painstaking procedures. It was basically a free-for-all. Whoever owned a book and chose to copy it could do whatever he wanted. After all, it was his book.
Similarly, until the canonization of the bible (separately by the Jews and the Christians, both in the A.D. time frame), the idea of "scripture" was a vague term which was generally "in the eyes of the beholder". Pretty much everyone agreed the first five books were scripture, but after that, people pretty much had their own opinions of what was scripture and what wasn't. It was all vague and undefined. And you couldn't be right or wrong - there was no official list.
Hence, we have New Testament verses quoting "scripture" that is found nowhere in what we currently know as the Old Testament. Most likely these verses were in some other book, perhaps now extinct, that some people considered scripture.
All we have at this late date are the writings that survived and found acceptance by the religious authorities of the time. And it shows.
"Anonymous said...
We need to repent of our evil ways, and acknowledge Herbert W. Armstrong as the Apostle of God, the Elijah to come. He turned the hearts of the fathers to the sons as prophesied in the book of Malachi.
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. The carnal mind is an emnity against God.
But, this gospel of the kingdom - God's work of witnessing and warning to this earth - shall be preached in ALL the world, and then shall the end come.
The end cannot come until this gospel has been preached in all the world. "
Anonymous, I can never tell if you're pulling our legs or if you really mean this stuff. If you mean it, don't you realize you're preaching to the wrong group of people? Or are you, like HWA, doing it so you can say "at least they've been warned, now they have no excuse"?
Please let me know if you're joking.
Anonymous PCG flurrybot who keeps posting:
"We need to repent of our evil ways...blah, blah, blah
Either:
A. You're joking and it stopped being funny a while ago.
OR
B. More disturbingly you are serious, are a member of PCG, and are clearly violating the non blogging mandate. or was that RCG?
Either way, I can't imagine Flurry endorsing blogging even to promote his crackpot Malachi's message???
And Oh yeah...send $$$ to the PCG "building fund"?
Do you know what happened the last time Flurry begged and Cajoled the PCG flock to strain and sacrifice $$$ for the "building fund?"
After raking in a few million for the church "building fund" what did he build? He built new palacial homes on the PCG compound for himself and his kids!
What a sad bait and switch!
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Let's nickname flurrybot "Amos"
Ignore Amos!
Nice try Gavin..No one knows or wants to know the story behind the prophets...The modern day profits are more interesting I guess.
Gavin, I am reading a couple of Jonathan Kirsch's books, "Moses a Life" for one. Not sure we he comes from totally. He creates doubt that Moses even exists, then he writes as if the story were true. Just not totally sure where he is coming from.
He does feel as do the scholars that Genesis was written by at least three authors.
He mentions often that Moses is not quoted much at all in the OT, a little in the NT, making that suspicious to him.
Yet, David definately quotes and alludes to "the Law" when he writes Psalms. Compare Psalm 8 to Dt 4:15-21 and Genesis 1 where God said man would be over the beasts of the field, etc.
Kirsch mentions two of the supposed authors of Genesis, "The Elohist" because he used the term Elohim, and "The Yahwehist" because he used the term Yahweh to describe God.
Here is a question then from the non-unitarian/trinitarian perspective. The WCG in it's heyday used to say that Elohim was a uni-plural word.(plural in other words). Yahweh was always singular. In Genesis 3:1 we see the "Lord God" (Yhwh Elohim) mentioned and his name is singular.
Has anyone ever thought that just maybe, the Elohim (let us make man in our image) was a plural name referring to the God head. And Yahweh would a sort of "first name" for lack of a better term, for the one who became the Logos?
Hence, if one were 'he', the other 'they' we have the tense in Hebrew, translated correctly in English.
This could indicate simply the same author throughout who understood God. He spoke with YHWH face to face, so, you would think he would know.
Just a thought. One day I will email Dr. Kirsch for his consideration of this.
Sincerely,
The Sabbathite
Sabbathite...take some time with A History of God by Karen Armstrong for answers to your questions.
Hi Gavin
I don't have your email address, but someone needs to do an unbiased review of
Raising the Ruins: The Fight to Revive the Legacy of Herbert W. Armstrong (Hardcover)
by Stephen Flurry (Author)
It is in Dalton's and Amazon. I figured your the fellow to do it.
A new cult test........
http://coxcult.com/Cult.html
The Video
Sorry to interrupt the thread here but I think it would be interesting to get your take on "Raising the Ruins" Gavin.
Here is my "Raising the Ruins" review:
First a little context. I grew up in the Church with a father who was a minister and attended AC, left WCG for UCG, and then happily left it all in my rearview.
Steven Flurry constructs an interesting account, from the court documents, of the battle for the right to print Mr. Armstrong's literature. In addition, it details the calculated way Joe jr. systematically did away with everything.
I actually thought it was very well done and based on facts. All in all a very interesting book.
I think Flurry is cuckoo for cocoa puffs but this is as unbiased an account as can be expected.
The "raising the Ruins" part really only represents the last couple chapters of the book which details the PCG "reconstruction" of the Armstrong dream in Oklahoma.
If you have even a passing interest in WCG and its Splinters, I'd read the book. But, skip the last two chapters unless you are prepared to drink the Kool-Aid.
At least flip thru it next time you visit Barnes and Noble.
Ken said
"A new cult test........
http://coxcult.com/Cult.html
The Video"
That was classic! But, I can't get that music that accompanied the video out of my head:)
Steve wrote:
>>>74. Trance-Inducing Practices
MY COMMENT: Did anyone ever practice this one?<<<
I wish I had saved the picture, but a few years ago there was a picture posted on wcg related site that was of HWA leaving a Feast site. HE was getting into his limo and in the background a number of members were standing watching him. that was the really creepy part. Many of the women and even some of the men were crying!
I even saw this in Pasadena in the Auditorium. When HWA would walk out on stage many would be driven to tears in adoration. It was the same hysteria that was given to the Pope.
Speaking to the issue of if HWA had a "trance thing going on", well...
First of all, I like what Agent Orange has to say and think he's done a fine job with the "100-point cult test", not to mention the in-depth lookings at cults, complete with careful references.
Odd, how some look at one of those 100 points or two, discount that point or two(out of 100), to proclaim HWA was not a cult leader.
When I heard OLD sermons of HWA's (that are available online, and are pre Radio Church of God), I noticed he used a "voice roll technique", and when I heard it, I thought, "Holy Crap, Herbie did it, too!"
Many others used it. Here's some about that from Sutphen:
.........................
"A 'voice roll' is a patterned, paced style used by hypnotists when inducing a trance. It is also used by many lawyers, several of whom are highly trained hypnotists, when they desire to entrench a point firmly in the minds of the jurors. A voice roll can sound as if the speaker were talking to the beat of a metronome or it may sound as though he were emphasizing every word in a monotonous, patterned style. The words will usually be delivered at the rate of 45 to 60 beats per minute, maximizing the hypnotic effect."
Just something I noticed...
~Mel
Just a personal observation based on my own experience around all the key players in WCG...
While hindsite is remarkably accurate in what was "obviously going on," I think you give way too much credence for a well planned, well thought out, well executed religious scam. Personally and in my own experience with those involved, I can guarantee they had little or no idea of what they were doing and there was no conscious effort to talk certain ways, say certain things or induce trances in the audience. It may have had that effect at times, I just never saw any deliberate foreknowledge of knowing or wanting to do that to achieve some devious end. You give them too much credit for the end result of what may simply be good intentions gone haywire as the entire group became enamoured with itself.
Ok, now, crucify me.....
Dennis, I agree completely.
Although the end result is the same (a life destroying cult) I don't think HWA or the current Splinter leaders were knowing participants in some sort of well crafted plan to control peoples lives and create a cult. It was just the end result of kooky beliefs and "sheep" willing to participate!
The road to hell is paved with good intentions and I truly believe most WCG ministers thought they were doing their flocks a favor by "ruling with an iron fist."
You of all people should know Dennis! There weren't any memos sent around teaching ministers how to speak in trance inducing tones were there? :)
Could HWA have been demon possessed, and maybe that could have inspired him to use all of these techniques that he supposedly knew nothing about? Naaah, I don't believe in demons.
Seriously, all of the people in the sphincter groups (especially Flurry) seem to believe that somehow there was absolutely no wrong-doing, no corruption until the Tkach's came along and suddenly ruined everything. Stephen Flurry's book is significant more because of what it does not say than what it does say. If young Flurry wanted to tell the whole truth, as opposed to simply resurrecting and selling the Armstrongism product, he would have detailed the abundant and well known corruption from when HWA ruled the WCG with an iron fist.
Fortunately, John Trechak and others chronicled such corruption in the AR, and other publications. Much of this corruption seems to have surfaced during the time of receivership and at the time of the divorce from Ramona. He who hath an ear, let him hear!
BB
Dennis and Chuck,
I agree as well. I think, at the onset, that HWA was desperate for something, ANYTHING, with which he could support his family and he turned out to have a real knack for religion. Over the years, he increasingly used the techniques that worked best and stopped using the things that didn't work.
The same goes for his lieutenants. Most were only in high positions because they were the first ones to graduate AC, not because they had special skills, talents or abilities. They adapted HWA's approach to their own strengths and personalities and, again, kept using what worked and stopped using what didn't work.
HWA and his top men earned fortune, fame (at least within the church) and a good lifestyle for their efforts. They probably started believing their own preaching after a while. Most people would. Heck, I believed it. So did most of you. It was pretty heady stuff, being part of God's elect and understanding God's truth while the "world" was in darkness and ignorance. It was appealing, and it was pretty easy to convince our selves it was true.
"You of all people should know Dennis! There weren't any memos sent around teaching ministers how to speak in trance inducing tones were there? :)"
Nope..never saw one and never took a class on:
"Twelve Easy Steps in Screwing Over a Congregation.
"Tithes...a Personal Perk to Enrich Your Ministry."
"The Hidden Enemey in Your Home...Dust."
"Satanic Car Colors."
"How to Give a Hypnotic Sermon."
"How to Quote the Bible to Your Own Advantage."
"Seven Ways to Waste Your Own Time and Life as a Minister."
"Clearly Explaining the Inexplicable."
"First Fruits...The Way to Avoid Grocery Shopping."
"Six Easy Ways to Get Members to Do Free Things for You."
"40 Sure Fire Ways to Intimidate the Hell Out of Sheeple."
"40 Tried and Proven Ways to Turn Sincere Humans into Dumb Sheep."
"There is Puffage in Your Tires and Popcorn...How to Search Out Leavening and Sin for UB."
"Lying for the Corporate Sole...12 Things We Expect from Ministers, or No More Job."
"Third Tithe...Learning How to Increase Corporate Wealth."
"Twelve Easy Ways to See Satan in a Member Who Asks Questions."
"40 Reasons Why YOU, the Minister, Are So Much More Special than Anyone Else You Meet."
"250 Things You Can Buy Your Ego with the Shitty $30,000 Max We Intend to Pay You for Pastoring 3 Congregations Over Ten Thousand Square Miles."
"Sure Fire Prayers You Can Offer God When You Find Out We Lied To You About Retirement."
"Three Prayers to Offer When Members Scream 'You Deserve to Burn in Hell' When you don't"
"Seven Tried and Proven Meds You Can Take When We Discourage and Mock the Shit Out of You After We Throw Everyone Away But the Imperial School Guys."
Ok.....I wander....
Dennis said...
"You of all people should know Dennis! There weren't any memos sent around teaching ministers how to speak in trance inducing tones were there? :)"
Nope..never saw one and never took a class on:
MY COMMENT: They might not have been written down but they sure worked, didn't they? Here's another one: "Wait to see how many suckers will leave WCG before starting UCG so we can get enough tithe money to support our lifestyles."
I asked Jim Franks if only 10 people would have left WCG to be in UCG, would he have left. He said, "No, because it wouldn't have been of God with just a small amount of people". He was conveniently out of Houston when all hell broke loose.
Steve K
"When HWA would walk out on stage many would be driven to tears in adoration."
That is just stupid. Nobody cried when he came out on stage he even yelled at people to stop applauding for him. It was Tkach who would stand at the back sometimes and start clapping, or one of his minions.
Crying for him......get out.
Why is it that all the HWA supporters sign on as "ananymous"?
Or ... maybe it's not "all" the HWA supporters - maybe it's just one person?
Anonymous said...
"When HWA would walk out on stage many would be driven to tears in adoration."
That is just stupid. Nobody cried when he came out on stage he even yelled at people to stop applauding for him. It was Tkach who would stand at the back sometimes and start clapping, or one of his minions.
Crying for him......get out.
MY COMMENT: I have seen people cry, tears of joy, at the FOT when Herbie and Teddy would hug each other on the stage(what a stage!). Everyone would stand on their feet and applaud in adoration for a long time until Herbie would stretch forth his arms to demand silence. It was side show hype. I'm not sure if Herbie wanted people to act like that, but there sure was a lot of hypocrisy on that stage. First of all, Herbie and Teddy already met each other before coming onto the stage. Second, if they were at odds or had an argument before coming on stage, they put on a good show for the dumb sheep.
Steve K
Steve Said:
MY COMMENT: They might not have been written down but they sure worked, didn't they? Here's another one: "Wait to see how many suckers will leave WCG before starting UCG so we can get enough tithe money to support our lifestyles."
I completely understand and agree. I was amazed at how some/many guys changed or came up with stupid stuff after college. They were not the same people I knew. I do think that some conformed to the older guys that trained them. I lucked out and only worked briefly for two District Supt types directly and only one wanted me to do stupid things that made no sense and I didn't give a rats ass about. After that, my personal ministry was alone, no ministerial assistants to train, save one in UCG now who came strict and impractical in his approach to some things to begin with and on my own. I never had to deal with ministers in a NSE or W big city church. I was the country boy and somewhat isolated from the incrowd by circumstances and eventually by choice...My point is that there was no concerted effort at college to perpetuate dumb stuff. Most made it up after that...sorry to say.
but...It was not difficult to see that Dave Pack was going to be a "my way or the highway" type from the beginning..People don't change much in life compared to the expectations to "grow in grace and knowledge." It's usually grace with many rules to define it and knowledge if it fits the established format...
Dennis,
Where is your faith????
Remember Lot's wife!
"Dennis, Where is Your Faith/"
She's working today..
SCMassageTherapy.com
Dennis,
How well did you personally know Dave Pack?
What were your personal thoughts on him "back in the day?"
Email me SCMassageTherapy@aol.com
I prefer not feeling like a gossip or posting publically, people stuff. Just to note however, He's a highly competitive sports type and it spilled over and winning was everything and at all costs from what I remember. Is that gossip? :)
Dennis,
You wrote, "Ok, now, crucify me....."
I just ain't in a crucifying mood(some may be!), lol.
You wrote, "I can guarantee they had little or no idea of what they were doing and there was no conscious effort to talk certain ways, say certain things or induce trances in the audience."
I think you are right.
BTW, I should correct something I wrote, I said that I noticed the "voice roll technique" in "pre-Radio Church of God" by HWA. I meant to say "pre-WCG".
I heard it on a site that has archived a huge number of old HWA sermons. Some are even just snippets, but it is a valuable resource. Dang, I forget where that was...someone reading this may give a website addy.
I do think that him using the "voice roll" was simply a matter of him learning from those around him, the stuff which he admired.
And yeah, it's a hindsight and analytical thing for someone to look back and give it a category/name like "voice roll technique".
Not that he was saying to himself, "Ok, I'm going to be an evil cult guru and will cause much destruction in this world....What exactly are the techniques I need to use to do that?"
Also I find it interesting that he seemed to leave the "voice roll technique" behind as he went ahead with what he was doing.
Perhaps that was a function of his personality.
~Mel
Mel, sounds right to me. All that would predate me in WCG. I met HWA in '68 when I thought he was already ancient and about to die..ha. I was 18. I had the typical dinner at his home when a senior and he had just returned from seeing Anwar Sadat. He was very grandfatherish and both talked and listened. He made a point that he did not eat at this table nor "this way" much at all,opting for sitting at the kitchen table. Other than that, I only saw him as a public persona as did most others.
Ted Armstrong always seem to me to be a talented fish out of water who probably did not want to be the tele-evangelist but felt stuck long ago to be what his brother Dick, killed in a wreck, would never be now. Hard to go from the Navy to Tel-evangelist I suppose :) I imagine his ship mates saw him in the 60's and said..."holy crap..that can't be..." ha!
I like Cher's quote about herself. This was the gist of what I remember but not exact I am sure. "My life has been messy, difficult at times and not what I had intended. But it is just me, doing the best I can."
I am a strong believer in the Four Agreements.
Be authentic to yourself, or impeccable with your word. (don't hurt people with your words...the bad energy comes back.)
Never take anything personally
Never Assume
Always do your best.
I find that at any given moment, what we are doing IS our Best. In my worst blunders in life, I was doing the best I could for all that lead up to the blunders, or I would not have made them.
Sometimes life is like having a handful of feathers and a handful of tar which you mix together and then are expected to pick out the feathers. All you do is transfer them back and forth from hand to hand and have a mess. I guess that's what turpentine is for, but you destroy the feathers too. Sometimes all the spinning over past offenses seems like trying to solve the tar and feathers problem.
Christianity demands we not only do our best but "become perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." Whether it means mature or perfect, who cares? No challenge there, and many languish under unrealistic expectations of themselves and those of others about them to their personal harm.
Can you tell I'm having a slow day..ha!
Dennis said: "...many languish under unrealistic expectations of themselves and those of others about them to their personal harm."
Truer words could not have been written Dennis. If only I had seen this in myself sooner...
Gavin mentioned that the book of Mormon was derivative. But what should we say about Biblical Criticism? C.S. Lewis identified the two majors trends in Biblical Criticism about half a century ago and thought it was just a fad.
But after many derivations, it is still around, still trendy. What Lewis identified:
1. Critics discover, reapeatedly, the "historical" Jesus (a liberal Jesus, a Marxists Jesus, a marginal Jew, etc.) and this historical Jeus is always in sharp contravention to the Biblical Jesus. This seems to go for the some of the prophets as well. There is so much dissension, over time, among Biblical Critics, how can we give any credence to the melange.
2. Each of the books of the Bible is attributed to many sources. So we may have six authors of the Book of Ezekiel and so on.
While Lewis' analysis was incisive, his expectation that this would all come to an end, based on what happened with Shakespearean criticism, was wrong.
God is a very uncomfortable concept to people who have rejected him. So I expect that these derivative arguments have the same longevity as disbelief.
-- Neo
How on earth did U.S. News and World Report get re-elevated as an authoritative matchstick on critical theology?
Good grief, for a second I had a unsettling flashback to Gene Hogberg and the Plain Truth News Bureau in 1980. Next thing you know, we'll all be re-grasping the "God is dead" Time cover from the 1960s. In that vein, anybody want to sign up for the casting call for the next "America listen!" public bible studies and WCG-flavored quasi-"Up With People"-type music extravanganzas? (of which one of the music co-directors was none other than one John Trechek.
(Reaches for a glass of dystilled water and 500 mg of thiamin)
Trader
>>>"When HWA would walk out on stage many would be driven to tears in adoration."
That is just stupid. Nobody cried when he came out on stage<<<
I don't know what Armstrongite world you are presently on, but people DID cry at HWA's presence on the Ambassador stage. I was there. I saw it. I was there from the mid 70's thorough the refuting of the perverse teachings. So I know what I saw. I also was a part of WCG since 1960. And every time Herbie was present there were people crying and adoring him. He could do no wrong. You can deny all you want things about Herbie so that 'saintly' image can be preserved, but facts make a mockery of all things Herb.
"How on earth did U.S. News and World Report get re-elevated as an authoritative matchstick on critical theology?"
It would be the scholars contained within the article commenting on their area of expertise IN USNWR. They merely provide a forum for the information. Kinda like the Discovery Channel hosting on the topic of the evolution of man or the civil war. I doubt the actual Discovery Channel people actually interview themselves on their most recent finds in Africa...any more than the staff at USNWR interview themselves on the topic of the Prophets or a current concept in religion such as "God is Dead." It's a vehicle by which the topic reaches a lot more people. I know you know that.
I do remember the thunderous roar of the crowd at Feast of Tabernacle services when HWA's pilot would "buzz" whatever meeting place the congregation was at. It was kind of like the way in which crowds show their approval at Country and Western concerts.
Really, the adulation accorded HWA should not even be in question, since we have Flurry's group's example here in modern times. They worship HWA more than Jesus! And, really, it's not all that different from the way it was way back when. For some of these imbeciles, HWA is a Moses-like or Christ-like leader type figure. Wouldn't it be nice to watch HWA polish the Pope's sandals during the KoG?
I have been going thru the website that Dennis recommended:
http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/fprophet.html
Also I've been doing just as HWA told me to do when he said "don't believe me, open your own bible"
Well I have opened my bible and some of the OT accounts, in particiularly that of David and the flood, are so painfully inconsistent it is unreal!
There is no way that one man could have written such patched together stories.
What were ministers told about these inconsistencies? I'm ashamed that I never read them more closely, FROM MY OWN BIBLE!
Chuck:
WCG ministers, and it pains me to not have seen this myself when younger, were taught the Bible as Bible readers. We, as Church members as well, were taken through the Bible for what it said. I'd say the average Pastor and member knew what the Bible said, where, and who very very well.
However, why and how, not so much. I can't believe I did not see the rancor Paul had for the Jerusalem Church leaders in Galatians 1 and 2 when I was studying the book. I am firmly convinced that the mind filters out what it does not wish to see, or does not expect to see depending on the environment that mind is being educated in. It's the same at many many, if not all denominational Bible Schools. You get that spin and the mind filters out that which does not fit spinning it others ways.
We never would have suspected that the Bible had internal problems with it's own stories and characters. We would never have understood anything but the "Harmony of the Gospels" as taught by RCM. Now I see there is anything BUT Harmony in the Gospel accounts nor would I have seen the editing each book does to undo the embarassments and misteps of the previous ones. Not to mention the unreconcileable contradictions in the birth and resurrection accounts.
We also were taught, as all are everywhere, the God of Genesis and the Cultic Israelites is the same God we have in our mind when we think of Jesus "Father" and that the God of Abraham was the same kind of God that others knew later in OT history. The idea that God evolves from Genesis to Revelation never occurs to us. In fact, God rather drops out of the Bible somewhere in the OT and is not much heard from again...I guess he retires and turns the business over to Jesus for a year or three depending on which Gospel you use and then He disappears for the next 2000 years plus. Well he gets to stay in the form of Churches and in our hearts, but can't seem to hold a coherent group together..."all one body weeee" And the understanding of all the hearts is divisive to say the least. Most churches multiply by division and add members by subtracting others from their churches.
At any rate, I know many former ministers of many Christian faiths who came to their senses after trial, trauma and turmoil in ministries they thought they were called to in their youth and had it hit them right between the eyes later inlife . Most ministers who wake up to the problems of the Bible either become Chaplains, Teach the Bible to others in Seminaries that have open minds, or struggle to find meaning in the whole mess. Most ministers who wake up get their credentials first and then wake up with credentials to boot. It's hard to want to get more credentials after you wake up. James Tabor is a good example of having the best of both worlds. A faith that serves a personal need and a career that allows for wandering way outside the box,teaching, learning, traveling and speculating on how it might really have been, but one that no congregation would tolerate at any church level. Or at least it seems that way to me.
I can't say I'm not a little depressed about waking up way late after the fact while Joe Jr. and Co. gets to rule over the ruins as an overpaid Sunday School Teacher.
Someday the OT God who started out as El and evolved through YHVH and usurped all the other gods because, after all, he was a jealous God, are going to have a talk about all this apparent crap, and why the path not to be taken was the path my own sincere desire to know the truth etc...took me.
I am reminded of Joe Pesci's line in in JFK when he got twangled in all the drama of the JFK plot... "All I ever wanted to be was a f.... Priest." I believe I would have had my same wake up in any denomination because few churches can afford to keep an awakened pastor around. It might spread prove contagious...but probably not in my experience actually.
Shit for brains comes to mind...
"I can't say I'm not a little depressed about waking up way late after the fact while Joe Jr. and Co. gets to rule over the ruins as an overpaid Sunday School Teacher."
Hey Dennis, I have very mixed feelings for Joe Tkach, and Joe Jr., myself. On the one hand, they did me a big favor. They made me question my beliefs, and once I started asking questions I started my journey out of the cult.
On the other hand, what they did was extremely immoral and unethical. They took all our assets. If they disagreed with the WCG teachings, the ethical thing to do would have been to leave and join a church that matched their beliefs. What they did was to keep all the assets to themselves and make the true believers leave.
It's sickening to think about. It was all set up throught the "Corporate Sole" setup, legally, and the "God Rules through One Man" doctrine that conned us into falling for it. That worked great for HWA, and for us true believers who believed whatever HWA told us, but after HWA died we were screwed.
Oh well, what did he care? And even though it's sickening, it DID pry me loose from the cult.
Planned?
My observation over the decades: Nothing much was planned and less was followed up -- the practice of most business today.
Instead, it was hopeful thinking and as opportunistic as an aggressive disease.
As for the prophets, as in "The US News and World Report" analysis, they were hopeful and, when the situation was right, opportunistic.
Nothing has changed... ever.
This adulation of HWA and GTA that I saw back in the Seventies now strikes me as being creepy. I recall church women talking about how GTA was one of the handsomest men they had ever seen. What once seemed innocuous, now seems beyond the pale, after the checkered history of the WCG.
Although I have never heard anybody explicitly state it, I think comparisons were made between HWA and God the Father and GTA and Christ. I really cannot cite anything concrete to support this feeling.
"In fact, God rather drops out of the Bible somewhere in the OT and is not much heard from again..."
This is what we would class as an unfounded assertion. God is mentioned throughout the Bible except maybe the Book of Esther, where he is present implicitly.
-- Neo
I did not mean that God disappeared as a being mentioned or appealed to. I said it badly. What I meant was that God is present, talking, commanding, leading etc early in the OT. This is gradually replaced by God being referred to but not speaking or anyone really speaking to him and getting answers. People such as prophets speak for God and they alone hear the voice of God. By the time one gets to the NT,of course, we have nothing of God's presense and direct intervention as in the early OT when you had to hide your face from Him.
I disagree with the notion that Tkach and Co. "should have just left" instead of doing what they did.
Are we to somehow suddenly believe that ethical or sensible behavior needed to be applied to the operation of the organization? Leading management literature points to the fact that what happened, would happen. There was no provision made for the future, or for succession, or, for that matter, for wise stewardship and management -- largely because it didn't exist previously.
Truth be told, whoever gained control was going to be in a position to wield control -- no different than what existed beforehand, I might add.
The fact that what they did was pretty inept and stupid is beside the point. The organization was set up in such a way that they could do what they did, and so, they did. I have difficulty believing that numerous others would not have botched it in their own special ways.
Ripley...I believe you are right about that. I have felt the same "you should have left," but one simply needs to look at the dyamics of those who startd UCG, RCG, LCG, PCG and realize that they would have been the chief players in vying for the power after HWA. Or had some gentle soul with a brain actually found their way into the chain of succession, those others would have driven them out. In other words, split upon split was inevitable. Only the names and circumstances would have changed. Had GTA been a dependable replacement for HWA, it would have gone a few more years intact but merely postponed the hassle. Add to this the ability of lay members and Ministers of any denomination to no longer restrict their questions to a formal ministry nor look to them for authoritative answers, and it's a sure thing what has happened would happen no matter what. The church, as most, would never be mature enough to embrace diversity of thought.
Neotherm said: Although I have never heard anybody explicitly state it, I think comparisons were made between HWA and God the Father and GTA and Christ. I really cannot cite anything concrete to support this feeling.
Comment: I recall such a statement made once or twice by RCG/WCG ministers.
If you speak with people who have left the organization, many of them will tell you that their image of God, during their WCG days was kind of a spiritualized or glorified version of HWA. A wise ancient man with his white hair Brylcreemed straight back, and speaking very authoritatively in a booming voice.
Boy howdy, GTA sure botched the Jesus connection though, didn't he?
"The fact that what they did was pretty inept and stupid is beside the point."
Inept is something I doubt on this one, stupid, yes. But this was planned, sorry to say, for sure.
These guys took away the 800# from the telecast to reduce the donor base, which actually gave 3x more than the cost of the 800#. Less donors lead to less co-workers and so on. It was planned, I was told so by some at HQ even before the 5 year plan was produced.
These guys just wanted the cash. Wonder sometimes if someone can catch these guys for mail fraud. Somewhere along the way they had to send out something via mail saying they were continuiing with this or that and asking for $ to get it done without the intent of doing so. I would like to see blackbeard (or is it greying beard?) pay for his transgressions today and hopefully he repents so he does not tomorrow as well.
" don't know what Armstrongite world you are presently on, but people DID cry at HWA's presence on the Ambassador stage. I was there. I saw it. I was there from the mid 70's thorough the refuting of the perverse teachings. So I know what I saw. I also was a part of WCG since 1960. And every time Herbie was present there were people crying and adoring him. He could do no wrong. You can deny all you want things about Herbie so that 'saintly' image can be preserved, but facts make a mockery of all things Herb."
Maybe you were one of the ones crying, I was there too, only remember people thinking he was senile repeating the two trees often. No one here is thinking of the saintly person you are envisioning. It was Tkachs people who always started the applause in the back of the aud and everyone else followed until he yelled at them.
If it were different before my time, I cannot say. People just were not that 'devoted' to him that way. I think they feared him a lot, especially the sycophants. But that is another subject for another time. This is the second time I have attempted to answer this, hope it goes through.
About comparisons of HWA to the Father and GTA to Christ: yes, I heard that a number of times, either alluded to from the pulpit, or probably more often in private discussions, especially while I was an AC student.
HWA, with his more formal lifestyle, old-fashioned perspective (sometimes almost Victorian in manner), preference for classical music, etc., seemed to many to make him like the patriarchal, dignified Father-god. GTA, who seemed to be more connected with the "common folk", as demonstrated by his easygoing manner of talking (when not in the radio/TV booth), enjoyment for participating in sports with lay members, and his liking for country-western and some rock-and-roll music, was seen as being the Christ-figure, the one who mediates between humans and God.
Wow, the ideas that seemed so logical way back then!
For the interested, HWA defines what a TRUE PROPHET is, about 16 minutes into his archived sermon at:
http://tinyurl.com/2eftuu
~Mel
I posted a reference to this last year on the Fundamentalist JLF Board last Easter and was blown off by their censors
Thanks for writing this.
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