The website for Living University is now up at www.livinguniv.com. One of UCG's leading bloggers has this conciliatory comment:
Whether one is a member of Living Church of God, United Church of God or any other facsimile thereof, it is in all our interests to have a biblically educated membership and a means of passing it on to the next generation.
Which is a reasonable and balanced statement. But, all invective aside, is this likely to occur in the close confines of a church-run institution?
Biblically educated means more than recounting denominational dogmas, it implies hard questions and critical thinking. It demands that authoritarian pronouncements are able to be challenged, discussed openly and even refuted. Being polite, docile and well-groomed is irrelevant.
Was that even remotely possible at Ambassador College? Those who have listened to former students like Greg Doudna know better. At best AC was a training school. You train seals; humans you educate (there is a difference). For most of its institutional life Ambassador was completely unsuitable for accreditation.
Assuming it ever gets off the ground, will Living University do any better? Here's the outline for its flagship theology course:
THL 135 Life, Ministry, and Teachings of Jesus (3-0-0-3)
Prerequisites: None.
Corequisites: None.
This course covers the life, ministry, and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the four Gospels. Emphasis is on the analysis of the four Gospels in the context of the social, political, and religious conditions of the first century. Upon completion, students should be able to explain the background, purpose, message, and themes of the Gospels and the significance of Jesus Christ in the first century and beyond. The lecture core of this course is a series of recorded lectures presented by noted television evangelist, author, and pastor of pastors Dr. Roderick C. Meredith.
Does "noted television evangelist, author, and pastor of pastors Dr. Roderick C. Meredith" have any recognised qualification for teaching this course? Is his doctorate from a legitimate university? Is his knowledge of the subject current? Has this "noted author" ever published a peer reviewed paper? How about any book not churned out for free as a church promotional? Is listening to "Dr." Meredith's tapes a credible strategy for a core paper?
Living University is, I suspect, a folly that will bleed LCG dry. It defies belief to imagine that any competent authority would ever accredit it. To think that this "university" will attempt to offer qualifications in psychology, anthropology and "health promotion" fairly beggars the imagination.
Would you want your family doctor to have a degree from Hamburger University? Why is that not okay, while a pastor can be functionally illiterate in theology and a danger to all concerned every time he opens his mouth to offer "counselling"?
Anyone in LCG, UCG or any other CG should consider investing in a real education, not hunkering down with recordings made by a rogue amateur who is now, and always has been, out of his depth.
The blog writer is correct: "it is in all our interests to have a biblically educated membership." For that reason alone, Living University is a very bad idea.
121 comments:
Dead end probably if one is looking for more than having the Bible read to them and then sermonizing about what was just read. ALL COG's, and really most Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, have yet to come to grips with the real text, origins, politics, contradictions and intent.
As long as there is a class on "Harmony of the Gospels," there is little hope of getting anything more than denominational spin. Of course, save for some rather independent Divinity Schools, this is true of most Bible Based educations.
RCM will open his Bible, read it and give a running commentary on it, sin, obedience, law, Christ and the Wonderful World Tomorrow and that's nothing more than a sermon. He'll wander and one will learn the art of prooftexting. If you stop him for a question, and if you know what to ask, he'll have no clue there was a problem with the text, and he'll cut your throat publically.
If you wish a theological education, go to Yale or Harvard. Of course, once you get it, you won't be able to Pastor a local congregation, in good faith, unless they are Unitarianish and willing to share what you really have come to understand about the Book.
And I mean that fellows and girls...I really do
As far as the tuition charges for this , maybe it will be a gold mine for them financially, that is until those poor unfortunate souls that forked over the loot find out they have been had and the diplomma is only good to wipe their butts on. Spanky with his "Doctored" Doctorate as the head cheese can only make this as the University of Dead Heads.
rod 2
Can I just pay and get a PHd?
Or can I just pay and become an Apostle?
Or can I just pay and become God?
This is really sad. Kids are going to go to this "school" and be robbed of their time and money and future. The point of college isn't to teach you stuff, it's to teach you to figure stuff out on your own. The goal of college isn't to learn facts; it's to learn HOW to learn. I don't see this happening at this "school". Really just sounds like a bunch of sermons. I feel bad for the kids that spend money on this and then have to choose between flipping burgers and fighting their way up a corrupt church hierarchy.
I feel bad for the kids that spend money on this and then have to choose between flipping burgers and fighting their way up a corrupt church hierarchy.
But if they make it up the corrupt church ladder to the top or nearby and have all that power and money, won't it have been worth it?
I am so sorry that life and God allows such a man as RCM get away with such things.
"I am so sorry that life and God allows such a man as RCM get away with such things."
For better or worse, this is what life and God, at times, seems most adept at....
This is far worse than Ambassador College/University. Rod Meredith's recorded "class lectures" will indeed be sermons, as were his lectures in the "Church History" class at AC in the old days, but now they'll be totally impersonal. What we DID have at AC was social interaction out the wazoo. It was a crowded fishbowl society on campus, and that perhaps has its benefits. You learn to adapt to a great diversity of personalities, you learn to stretch out and make friends, or at least social ties, with all sorts of people. The education at AC, except for the speech/communications courses, and maybe the business courses, was sorely lacking, but many of us had a whole world opened up to us from the diversity of students that were on campus in Pasadena, at least from the early 1970's onward. HWA had finally begun letting a good number of "non-Israelite" students in, so we had different "races", different nationalities, a kind of Disneyland Small World After All. That was good.
But students who sign up for courses with Living University won't have that. They'll have nothing.
"But if they make it up the corrupt church ladder to the top or nearby and have all that power and money, won't it have been worth it?"
Perhaps some things are worth more that money and power. Maybe a real and good education is one of those things, and maybe a real and good job or career is another one of those things.
Well, it's something to think about and at least they would have what it takes to live in the real world. That's gotta be worth something, right?
Let's not deceive ourselves. This is not a research project designed to dig deeper, find truth, and correct basically flawed theology. Many of us realize this, and it seems like a no-brainer, but I think it is important to note the "obvious" for the benefit of the many ACOG members who visit here daily.
This new "university" is simply an additional marketing arm for LCG, to provide more exposure for their existing package of doctrines, correct or not.
It could be different, but it won't be. If Dr. James Tabor, Jared Olar, and other knowledgeable ones were advisers, perhaps there would be some validity to the project. As it is, I'd advise any who plan to sign up to listen to the Who's opus "Won't Get Fooled Again". Especially the closing bars, in which a pattern of guitar chords are heard, and a voice sings the words, "Here's the new boss, same as the old boss".
BB
alan said
This is really sad. Kids are going to go to this "school" and be robbed of their time and money and future. The point of college isn't to teach you stuff, it's to teach you to figure stuff out on your own. The goal of college isn't to learn facts; it's to learn HOW to learn. I don't see this happening at this "school". Really just sounds like a bunch of sermons. I feel bad for the kids that spend money on this and then have to choose between flipping burgers and fighting their way up a corrupt church hierarchy.
____________________________
This is an online university, not a place to go to to attend. This concept has already been widely discussed and will continue to be discussed among LCG members, and I know some who are interested. Myself, maybe I'll sign up, although not for the first session. I'll see how it goes first.
The desirability of this course is of course to get a better, more systematic grounding in the theology that we already believe in. I'm sure many of you would prefer that the CoG memberships take courses in "the Bible is a piece of crap", but that tends not to be our preference.
"The desirability of this course is of course to get a better, more systematic grounding in the theology that we already believe in."
Translation: "I want to be brainwashed into Armstrongism even more than I am already"
Why is it that we have to see the Bible in black and white terms, such as ultimate truth or piece of crap?
Why can't it be something in between? Like maybe, a history of the evolution of religion, post-pantheism. People tend to hang on every word, not realizing that it contains bogus science, social commentary from different eras, questionable history, and many conflicts and contradictions. It is also one of the world's great pieces of literature, and contains some moral teachings that were very advanced for the bronze age.
Clearly, it is not a piece of crap. One must be very careful in the ways in which it is used, otherwise you might be like some of our forefathers and use its examples to justify degrading and dehumanizing practices such as slavery, or witch burnings, and other things which the ACOGs will probably reinstitute in their places of "safety".
In Dr. Germano's own words:
"Stay away from diploma mills displaying themselves on the WWW claiming that some accrediting association has accredited them. Avoid them like the plague."
http://web.archive.org/web/20050203210935/bibarch.com/Perspectives/7.3.htm
"The desirability of this course is of course to get a better, more systematic grounding in the theology that we already believe in."
That's exactly right...it is a education designed to perpetuate exisiting mistakes, (do they know this...no) misinterpretations, (ditto) opinions, ideas, thought forms and feelings about how things are, even if they aren't. It might be systematic, but it will not land squarely on any ground of reality in the world of Theology. Denominations are not in the business of exploration and discovery. They are in the business of "Jesus Christ..(meaning: us) the same, yesterday, the same and forever." Even if it is the same inaccurate thing.
It will not contain phrases such as:
We used to believe...
We used to teach'''
We have come now to see...
We don't know...
That's a good question.
Yes, that is a problem
I didn't know that.
What do you think?
That no longer seems to be valid.
That is speculation.
Gosh, maybe we missed the boat on that one...
That's very interesting...thank you for bringing that to our attention.
Moreharshelarsaramthahashzbash:
Now do't go getting practical and balanced on us! :)
Re LCGU..... Did the prophets have a degree from the worlds great teachers ? Did Jesus have a degee from the religious institutions of His day? Did His Disciples think they needed some extra Knowledge or understanding that Jesus didn't provide for them or didn't understand? Doesn't the Bible tell us to come out of the world? The worldy religious institutions would certainly qualify as worldly, as the Bible tells to do something and the worldy religious tells us we don't have to, because Jesus changed things, therefore we don't really have to do anything...Well, you just keep beliving that and see where it gets you.
LCG MEMBER said...
Re LCGU..... Did the prophets have a degree from the worlds great teachers ?
Dave Pack? Is that you Dave?
I have an undergraduate degree in history (BA), a law degree (JD)and a post graduate degree (LL.M.). I have attended universities in both Europe and the United States and published articles in academic journals in three countries. I regularly guest lecture at two European universities. I say all of this not to impress but to make the point that I understand the academic world, and I have absolutely no desire to see Church of God doctrines taught in a modern academic environment.
Why? Academia can inspire thought and innovation but often times "academics" are more concerned with what is new as opposed to what is truth. Student debate is good for sharpening wits, but not necessarily for revealing truth or answering questions.
The Church of God has always taught biblical doctrine as a practical science, and that is what it is. God is concerned with how we live, and the purity of the heart, not our debating skills nor our ability to engage in endless speculation.
If you have ever been to a university than you must know that the academic world is more often full of inflated egos than great ideas. Arrogance leads little room for faith and thus the reason why true biblical doctrine should not be taught with such a mindset.
N.
Re LCGU..... Did the prophets have a degree from the worlds great teachers ?
Well...no, actually and probably not. They heard voices in their heads. Laid seige to a frying pan. Laid naked for months on end and then flipped over for more. Walked through holes in the wall with all their stuff. Went to Sheep tending school. Married prostitutes for homework and generally ranted, oft times in vain and sometimes falsely. They called down bears on kids for calling them "baldy" and fire others to teach them a lesson they'd never forget..which they did cause they'd be burned up and there is no knowledge or remberance in the grave, wither they wentest, so we hear. Made axe heads float and pots of never ending dough. (Tech college stuff for sure, but that's not real college)
The first thing I ask a teacher from whom I seek understanding is "You didn't get an education did you?" If the answer is no, big relief here and I ask away. I mean after all...the wisdom of man is foolishness with God ('n those in the priestcraft). Always ask an uneducated expert I always say...The dumber, the closer to truth you get. It's just how it really works in religion..no honest...it does.
LCG MEMBER said...
"Did the prophets have a degree from the worlds great teachers?"
They were taught by someone and those someones were probably the world's greatest teacher at that time.
"Did Jesus have a degee from the religious institutions of His day?"
He was taught by someone, probably the same someone who taught him to read.
"Did His Disciples think they needed some extra Knowledge or understanding that Jesus didn't provide for them or didn't understand?"
Yes, and that is why Paul was invented. The disciples were too stupid to even remember that Jesus was to be resurrected, but the Jews remembered and posted a useless guard at the tomb.
"Doesn't the Bible tell us to come out of the world?"
No. "be ye seperate"
"The worldy religious institutions would certainly qualify as worldly, as the Bible tells to do something and the worldy religious tells us we don't have to, because Jesus changed things, therefore we don't really have to do anything"
Translation: Mainstream Christendom is wrong and the LCG cult is right
"Well, you just keep beliving that and see where it gets you."
Translation: "if you don't believe like I do and obey me you will end up in the Lake of Fire you scum".
"...but often times "academics" are more concerned with what is new as opposed to what is truth."
so true so true.....just look at the global warming mess....academics have jumped on that bandwagon because we now have a "new" crisis.........along with ozone holes, Joseph toombs, Jesus toombs, DaVinci codes, etc etc etc ......
gets so tiring...
at least the doctrine taught at Living U will be exponentially better than what the seminaries teach.
"Academia can inspire thought and innovation but often times "academics" are more concerned with what is new as opposed to what is truth."
Comment: and without "new" Christianity would still be Judaism and Judaism would still be paganism and paganism would still be probably more enjoyable. :)
"Student debate is good for sharpening wits, but not necessarily for revealing truth or answering questions."
Comment: yes, dimwits are not good but "revealed" truth" can be scary depending. I'd rather scratch and claw my way through the "truth," even if it was not to be easily discerned or at all discernable, than wait for revelations that must be accepted on the faith of the revealer one step above me that they are correct even if I personally have my doubts.
"...the academic world is more often full of inflated egos than great ideas. Arrogance leads little room for faith and thus the reason why true biblical doctrine should not be taught with such a mindset."
So is the world of Church and faith. Never a man more bragged about his humility, credentials, calling, specialness, insights, sufferings and understanding than the Apostle Paul, as portrayed in the record. Indeed Paul rejected his book learn'n to go with faith instead, but did we really get the truth of the matter, or just his truth of his matters and personal issues?
Faith is often what we have when we have no facts. Facts can be what we cling to when we have no faith. Facts often expose an unsustainable faith, but faith can't undo real facts. Facts can also build a faith, but a faith that contradicts the facts is dead.
(Don't worry,this will not be on the test.)
But I know what you mean. Life is a balance. Congratulations on your efforts and educational background as well.
I think it's when those without an education make fun of those that do as a way to seemingly show that what they know comes from God, precisely because they have no education, I get skeptical.
This didn't encourage me when HWA said it and it didn't when Paul said it.
"Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."
We are so used to accepting visions and imaginations of the old timey bible guys without question that we don't (or didn't) stop to get uncomfortable when we hear from the new timey bible guys who claim the same inspiration over persperation insights.
Back in the '70s as we were bailing from the so-called WCG, my brother and I created a fictitious apostle, true to the typically anti-intellectual, dumb sheep mentality which is apparently still prevalent in the splinters today.
We called this "apostle" Saint S(excrement)t. His chief admonition was "Don't look to a name, brethren, not many wise and noble are called at this time. God is using the lowly to confound the wise". We concocted a number of ridiculous doctrines for this pseudo-guru, and used all of the normal Armstrongite marketing cliches to defend him.
It was quite an impressive satire. I wish I could remember some of the details, as they were absolutely side-splitting. By the end of the biography, our erstwhile guru was fantastically wealthy, and jet-setting around the world.
BB
I have to disagree with all those who say a diploma from L.U. would be worthless. On the contrary, you can open it up, place it on your dashboard, and park in handicapped parking.
The desirability of this course is of course to get a better, more systematic grounding in the theology that we already believe in. I'm sure many of you would prefer that the CoG memberships take courses in "the Bible is a piece of crap", but that tends not to be our preference.
And that's fine. But that's not what's being advertised. What you're describing is like a 2-year Bible college. There are tons of them around. An "accredited University education" is different. It's supposed to be a COMPLETE education to prepare a young person academically for a career, and socially as well. I'm a Christian (at least in my own mind, if not in yours :-)) and I certainly don't think the Bible is a piece of crap, but neither is my concept of God so small that I'm fearful of hearing different opinions. My faith has been hugely challenged over my life, and many times I've struggled, but I now have a foundation unlike what I fear students will get from attending this "school".
"The desirability of this course is of course to get a better, more systematic grounding in the theology that we already believe in."
MY COMMENT: "A better, more systematic grounding in the theology that we already believe in"?? What does THAT mean? Are you going to change something that's old and outdated, or learn something new?
"I'm sure many of you would prefer that the CoG memberships take courses in "the Bible is a piece of crap", but that tends not to be our preference."
MY COMMENT: I would prefer that you COG "members" take a course in, "Herbert's(and his Humpty Dumpty men)interpretation of the Bible is a piece of crap.".
Steve K
I would project that the founding of such a "university" would lead to a revitalization of Armstrongism. Just think, who would have expected HWA and the original AC to have been a going business venture? There is no reason that Meredith or Kilough or Ward could not repeat this success. There is nothing special about HWAs success from a secular viewpoint. The key would be to form an institution that taught a form of Armstrongism that would be palatable to everyone so that the necessary numbers of supporters could be achieved. This may be impossible to attain but if it could be attained, Armstrongism would once again become a cultic "steam roller."
The fact is this type of institution is not intended to be a place of learning. It is intended to be a program of indoctrination. The use of academic parlance is just a gloss over the careful behavior shaping that happens there.
I am sure that each Armstrongite splinter has the grand vision of rebuilding the Armstrongite empire with Cessna Citations, lavish mansions, church owned feast sites, many beautifully landscaped campuses and a strong, charismatic leader. The splinters need to cease pursuing their individual dreams and get real. They must pool their resources or Armstrongism will forever be a theological footnote in the chapter on North American heresy. I am sure Armstrongites would prefer to own most of the chapter.
-- Neo
I asked ..."Doesn't the Bible tell us to come out of the world?"
Corkey said.....No. "be ye seperate" ... Well, looky what I found, and Believe it or not, heh, heh, I found it w/o any help from a worldy cemetery... er, seminary.
2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Ya'll will please excuse me if 'm not too impressed w/ ya'lls great knowledge of Scripture
"Ya'll will please excuse me if 'm not too impressed w/ ya'lls great knowledge of Scripture"
Oooh the humanity of it...pullllease don't say "ya'lls"!
LCG MEMBER said...
(2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,)
He meant the idol worshippers 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?
He was not talking about other christians.
(Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people,...)
Out of "her" the "great city" i.e. "Mystery Babylon" which can be easily shown to be Jerusalem.
Proof? Email me.
Corky said...He meant the idol worshippers 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? He was not .Talking
about other christians.... WHAT OTHER CHRISTIANS? The COG people were the only christians at that time. . And... Come Out of "her" the "great city" i.e. "Mystery Babylon" which can be easily shown to be Jerusalem... Yeah, I have read that too, but don't believe it
Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all..... I advse you to read the whole chapter of Rev 18... You seem to be the one who is mixed up.
"The fires of Hell are real and eternal.
'Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful,' the Pope has said.
Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, Benedict XVI said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to “admit blame and promise to sin no more”, they risked “eternal damnation — the Inferno” Hell “really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more”, he said"
Really..it really does. See...nice clothes, great home, excellent theological education doesn't insure you come up with reality...Must be hard times ahead...can't convince them, time to scare and guilt them. Hey...that's a COG tactic. No fair copying!
"He's doing what I am sure his many predecessors have done when they looked at falling numbers, empty churches, (and currently, pedofile scandals which are bankrupting many dioceses in the US).
But playing the fear card just won't work any more, except with vulnerable children, and Pope Benedict just doesn't get it.
What is that line about people in glass houses not throwing stones?
Benedict needs to get his own house in order, and get rid of the priests who are causing pain and anguish, and permanent emotional damage to kids who are being told, as they're getting abused, that it's "God's Will", and that they can never dare tell another human being what happened, because they'll go straight to hell."
Mike Rivero
Having access to all the theological information on the planet still doesn't make men good or less prone to control by fear. Besides, if the Pope would just take the LCG University course, he'd learn that hell is a quick, painless burn up...So maybe we do need it.
Anon LCG said...
I have to disagree with all those who say a diploma from L.U. would be worthless. On the contrary, you can open it up, place it on your dashboard, and park in handicapped parking.
MY COMMENT: You can also use it for your Bible marker, and when you open up your Bible, you can show it off to your LCG "brethren". I'm sure THEY would be impressed. Do "Ya'll" ever open up your Bibles besides to proof-text?
Steve K
Steve said...MY COMMENT: You can also use it for your Bible marker, and when you open up your Bible, you can show it off to your LCG "brethren". I'm sure THEY would be impressed. Do "Ya'll" ever open up your Bibles besides to proof-text? ...... I MIGHT ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION! DO "YA'LL"? I HAVE TO WONDER...
"...the worldy religious tells us we don't have to, because Jesus changed things, therefore we don't really have to do anything...Well, you just keep beliving that and see where it gets you."
Who says that you don't "have to do anything?"
Paul
LCG MEMBER said...
Steve said...MY COMMENT: You can also use it for your Bible marker, and when you open up your Bible, you can show it off to your LCG "brethren". I'm sure THEY would be impressed. Do "Ya'll" ever open up your Bibles besides to proof-text?
...... I MIGHT ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION! DO "YA'LL"? I HAVE TO WONDER...
MY COMMENT: Very intelligent response. Do you know anything about etiquette on the internet? I have to wonder.
Steve K
I think most people should ponder the concept of "reasonable doubt". There is no way that you could prove in a court of law that any church was the true church, or that any of the ways commonly taught was "God's way".
I was very conflicted as an ACOG member, and troubled about many of the doctrines that somehow never seemed right. But, I'd be conflicted about being a Jew, a Catholic, Episcopalian, Buddhist, Moslem, or Scientologist, too. If one cannot totally get behind a philosophy, the only thing that makes sense is to watch, wait, and keep searching for truth.
As far as Armstrongism, though, "Been there, done that, didn't even get the t-shirt because there was no money to buy it with all the tithing, and they didn't sell them at Goodwill".
BB
Hey...
If you are an Online "Living University" student, does this mean that you are only allowed to "date" other Online "Living University" students?
I cant wait for the offer to the entire LCG membership and COG universe as a whole to buy the special "2007 Leather Embrossed Online Living University Yearbook".
Lussenheide
"just take the LCG University course, he'd learn that hell is a quick, painless burn up...So maybe we do need it."
To prove that hell is quick and painless as you say, perhaps we should burn a Living heretic like you to prove just how a "quick, painless burn up" hell really is.
lussenheide said...
Hey...
I cant wait for the offer to the entire LCG membership and COG universe as a whole to buy the special "2007 Leather Embrossed Online Living University Yearbook".
My Comment: Do you think there will be a graduating class this year? That's a quick "degree". Oh well, what are they going to teach that hasn't already been taught for the umpteenth time? Yawn! :-)
Steve K
"He meant the idol worshippers 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?"
well, unless you are a member of God's Church you are an idol worshipper....and if by "other christians" you mean those of the Sunday persuasion, they are idol worshippers and not followers of Christ. (sounds harsh I know, but hey, sometimes the truth is harsh)
thankfully, they are not comdemned right now,.....they will have a chance at the time God so chooses.
Where is this "God's Church" some of you keep talking about? Is there healing there, and do they get prophecy right? Is there a hard and fast doctrine about make-up, rather than one that changes all of the time? Do they know when Pentecost is supposed to be kept? When it's proven that certain groups could not possibly have been descended from the Israelites, are the facts in keeping with the church's doctrine?
Are God's people kind to other humans, helpful, and do they display the love that Jesus displayed to random strangers and children throughout his ministry?
Is there concern for the long term well being of members, as opposed to exploitation? Are members considered to be valuable potential children of God, or are they pretty much thought of as disposable (as in MY way or the Highway)?
Do God's people look forward to and gloat over horrible disasters, disease epidemics, and the tribulation, even though they know that such events could be very painful for their neighbors, friends, and non-member relatives?
I'm looking for a "God's Church" where people's hearts are transformed, and filled with genuine love and concern for fellow man. Does anyone know where such a church may be?
"I'm looking for a "God's Church" where people's hearts are transformed, and filled with genuine love and concern for fellow man. Does anyone know where such a church may be? "
the answer is yes....and if you are sincere in your quest I have no doubt that God will direct you to one of the congregations.
Are children and young people mentored to and kindly guided? Are all the brethren treated equally as spiritual Israelites, regardless of their gender or ethnic background? When the minister has work around his house to be done, is he mindful of those in financial distress in his congregation, and does he hire and pay such people to do the work rather than exploiting them as slave labor?
Are the leaders considered to be fellow servants, or is the congregation encouraged to elevate them to second, third, fourth, etc. to Jesus Christ?
Are people allowed to develop their talents, and actually use the minds that God gave them?
saac's son said...
"I'm looking for a "God's Church" where people's hearts are transformed, and filled with genuine love and concern for fellow man. Does anyone know where such a church may be? "
brave anonymous poster said...
"the answer is yes....and if you are sincere in your quest I have no doubt that God will direct you to one of the congregations."
I say: One thing for sure, we never found such a "church" in the kingdom of Herbert, or his offspring, and never will, because the powers that be love to have the preeminence, and money. Look at the way that the "members" of those oprganizations respond just on this blog alone. There is not one congregation in existence that has genuine love and concern for their fellow man, not even among themselves, because their religion gets in the way. I know there are some who mean well and believe that they have the Spirit of God, yet ALL groups believe that they have the Spirit of God.
Self-righteousness rules in the hearts of religious people, especially in those who truly believe that they have a corner on the market...the COG people who use the Saturday rest day and "holydays" as their measuring stick, and believe that that is what seperates them from the heathen. You can't tell them that they are wrong. If you do, then they will tell you that you hate them, that you hate the Jews, and that you are filled with bitterness and Satan has hold of you and you will suffer. "Just wait and see."
You asked, "Does anyone know where such a church may be?", to which bap replied, "The answer is yes". If bap knows, then why not tell us? You can be as sincere as you want to and look near and far, but you will not find it, because it does not exist. But, you know that, don't you? After all, you asked the hard questions, of which the answers are always the same.
Steve K
I think most people should ponder the concept of "reasonable doubt". There is no way that you could prove in a court of law that any church was the true church, or that any of the ways commonly taught was "God's way".
There probably is a way in a court of law that the Armstrongists were not of the "true church". False prophecy alone would disqualify them.
Just how much truth does anyone think they got from someone was wrong about the outcome of World War II and 1975? How can anyone looking for the truth ignore the clear the commands of the Bible, including Jesus himself, warning people against false prophets.
Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet. Roderick Meredith is a false prophet. If anyone attends Rod's online university, they are partaking of the evils of a false prophet.
Look up the Scriptures folks, those of you who are contemplating your navel and thinking of joining up with yet another false prophet who is dressed in Armani Sheep's clothing inwardly a ravening wolf. What do they say? If you consider yourself a Christian, just how can you justify yourself?
No matter what, if you join up with a false prophet, you have to absolutely know that at least some of their doctrines are more than a little off-kilter.
Judge them by their fruit and ask yourselves, "Is this the example I really want to follow"?
But then, idolaters do not ask such questions of themselves, their consciences being seared with a hot iron and all. Fornication and wine and new wine have taken away even the natural affection of humanity. Go all the way and become a pervert of the sort you are following.
One Anonymous poster on another page said...
It has become obvious from reading this discussion that many, many pro-COG people read this blog.
Now think for a minute about what this implies.
If you were a true god-fearing COG member, loyal to the core and rock solid in your faith, why would you feel the need to ever visit a blog which has time and again offered copious and overwhelming proof Armstrongism is a lie and COG leaders are corrupt?.....WE COG MEMBERS CHECK IN ONCE IN A WHILE BECAUSE ALL OF YOU ARE SUCH GOOD EXAMPLES TO US. LIVING PROOF...AS WHAT NOT TO DO, AND HOW NOT TO BE...YOU PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ANSWER TO YOUR CREATOR FOR ALL THIS ONE DAY... I KNOW, ( WINK, WINK, SNICKER, SNICKER, GRIN. GRIN.) YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, BECAUSE YOU'VE FOUND SOMETHING BETTER, WELL YOU BETTER ENJOY IT WHILE YOU CAN...IF YOU EVER KNEW THE TRUTH AND TURNED FROM IT YOU'VE HAD IT ACCORDING TO YOUR CREATOR!
2Pet2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it , to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. I THINK MOST OF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT LATTER END IS...FUNNY AIN'T IT???
LCG Member, what if you couldn't tell that being part of an ACOG was the truth? What if it didn't pass the tests, and didn't deliver what it was supposed to? In fact, what if the results in your own life were pretty much the same as being the part of any other group or being part of no group?
Just judging by the Bible, you should be able to feel the difference by the seat of your pants! Being part of the correct group should give you a direct channel to God and Jesus, and you should be able to know things like what is going to happen and when, prophetically speaking. Fantastic healings should be commonplace, and parents and children should be happily united and living harmoniously.
No, the ACOGs fail to deliver on all fronts. The elders behave like the elders who falsely accused Susanna, and live like they think they're royalty, while members are impoverished because somebody has deceived them to make them think their ministers are Levites and must be tithed to. The light is not allowed to be shared with their family members, because in many of the ACOGs, one must separate oneself from "carnal" relatives and friends.
Get a clue! Wake up! If the ACOGs truly delivered, who would NOT want to be part of them? You'd literally have to stand guard at the door to keep people from streaming in, just as we read that it was in all the cities of Israel as people heard Jesus message.
BB
".....WE COG MEMBERS CHECK IN ONCE IN A WHILE BECAUSE ALL OF YOU ARE SUCH GOOD EXAMPLES TO US. LIVING PROOF...AS WHAT NOT TO DO, AND HOW NOT TO BE..."
Translation: We are smug, in need of comparing ourselves with the evil ones so we feel good about ourselves and unwilling to allow others to openly feel what they feel about the religious confusion they have experienced.
Personally, I think the waking up will prove to be more widespread than you believe. And we promise, before Oh Susanna, Goddess of Daniel 13, to give ya a big hug and say, "we understand."
Anonymous said...
".....WE COG MEMBERS CHECK IN ONCE IN A WHILE BECAUSE ALL OF YOU ARE SUCH GOOD EXAMPLES TO US. LIVING PROOF...AS WHAT NOT TO DO, AND HOW NOT TO BE..."
Translation: We are smug, in need of comparing ourselves with the evil ones so we feel good about ourselves and unwilling to allow others to openly feel what they feel about the religious confusion they have experienced. ......... THAT'S STRANGE, HERE I THOUGHT ALL THE TIME THAT YOU WERE THE SMUG ONES, TALKING ABOUT HOW WRONG WE ARE...MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ WHAT JESUS SAID TO THE RELIGIOUS KNOW-IT-ALLS OF HIS DAY...
If listening to Meredith live was enough to put freshmen at A.C. asleep in their seats, I wonder how well a tape will fare.
"Re LCGU..... Did the prophets have a degree from the worlds great teachers ?"
Does the apostle Paul count?
Anonymous said...
Personally, I think the waking up will prove to be more widespread than you believe. And we promise, before Oh Susanna, Goddess of Daniel 13, to give ya a big hug and say, "we understand."
My Comment: Usually, the "waking up" happens when one is personally screwed by the "minister". THEN, they realize how wrong they are. I've seen it happen many times. Their minds are so closed to the idea that they could be wrong, that they continue to cling to those old doctrines and ideas for years before finally reading the Bible without proof-texting, and begin reading other's literature and perspectives without considering it Satanic. But, as long as they stay in the cult, believing what they are told to believe from the pulpit by a "minister" with "credentials", they will never wake up. You can tell one of them the truth about something all day long and they won't believe it. Have one of their top-dog "ministers" tell them the same thing, and they'll believe it. If that isn't idolatry, I don't know what is!
Steve K
lcg member said...
"......... THAT'S STRANGE, HERE I THOUGHT ALL THE TIME THAT YOU WERE THE SMUG ONES, TALKING ABOUT HOW WRONG WE ARE...
My Comment: That just goes to show how cultish you are.
MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ WHAT JESUS SAID TO THE RELIGIOUS KNOW-IT-ALLS OF HIS DAY...
My Comment: Aren't you one?
Steve K
"I'm looking for a "God's Church" where people's hearts are transformed, and filled with genuine love and concern for fellow man. Does anyone know where such a church may be?"
Church as in organization? Nope. Christians who make up the body of Christ who demonstrate this love? Yep, but few and far between.
Anonymous said...
"Re LCGU..... Did the prophets have a degree from the worlds great teachers ?"
Does the apostle Paul count? ..................YEAH , HE DOES AND LOOK WHAT HE DID WITH IT WHEN JESUS CALLED HIM. THANKS , THAT WAS A REAL GOOD EXAMPLE....
Steve said...
lcg member said...
"......... THAT'S STRANGE, HERE I THOUGHT ALL THE TIME THAT YOU WERE THE SMUG ONES, TALKING ABOUT HOW WRONG WE ARE...
My Comment: That just goes to show how cultish you are.
MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ WHAT JESUS SAID TO THE RELIGIOUS KNOW-IT-ALLS OF HIS DAY...
My Comment: Aren't you one?.............FUNNY, HOW PEOPLE CAN THINK ALIKE IN DIFFERENT WAYS, I'VE BEEN THINKING THE SAME ABOUT YOU! YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT HOW WRONG WE ARE AND WHEN WE SHOW YOUR FAULTS YOU APPARENTLY HAVE NOTHING TO COME BACK WITH BUT INSULTS AND PUTDOWNS. THATS BASICALLY ALL YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT SEEMS. BUT TO CALL US A CULT IS NOT AN INSULT TO ME, BECAUSE THE CHURCH OF GOD WAS CALLED A SECT IN THE BIBLE, AND THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME BASIC MEANING.... PEOPLE WHO DONT GO ALONG WITH THE MAINSTREAM BELIEFS..... AND I HAVE CERTAINLY SEEN NOTHING ON THIS SITE TO MAKE ME THINK ANY DIFFERENTLY. YOU SET YOURSELVES UP AS OUR JUDGES TELLING US HOW WRONG WE ARE WHEN YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE ONES WHOM YOU ARE PUTTING DOWN. AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WE BELIEVE, EVIDENTLY. IF YOU DID YOU WOULD KNOW THAT MOST UF US TRY TO FOLLOW WHAT THE BIBLE TELLS US, AND NOT WHAT ANY MAN TELLS US TO DO. YOU ARE THE
ONES WHICH HAVE THINGS BACKWARDS...
"BUT TO CALL US A CULT IS NOT AN INSULT TO ME, BECAUSE THE CHURCH OF GOD WAS CALLED A SECT IN THE BIBLE, AND THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME BASIC MEANING.... PEOPLE WHO DONT GO ALONG WITH THE MAINSTREAM BELIEFS....."
No sir. The WWCG was not a cult because it observed the Sabbath, or refrained from eating pork. It was a cult, just as is LCG, because of the control of leadership over the physical and spiritual lives of the membership, and the apparent lust for that control on the part of the membership.
Paul
"You can tell one of them the truth about something all day long and they won't believe it. Have one of their top-dog "ministers" tell them the same thing, and they'll believe it. If that isn't idolatry, I don't know what is!"
Right on the money. That is why many in the LCG wholeheartedly accept the relaxation of several doctrines imposed on them in the WWCG- not because they, through biblical research discovered that the doctrines were unbiblical, but because they "told" that it was okay through the ministry. It was the same way in the ICG- why was the Place of Safety a silly idea? WHy, because GTA said so! Oh how silly we were to believe that doctrine! But now, we know better, all thanks to GTA!
Mindnumbing.
Paul
Anonymous said...
"BUT TO CALL US A CULT IS NOT AN INSULT TO ME, BECAUSE THE CHURCH OF GOD WAS CALLED A SECT IN THE BIBLE, AND THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME BASIC MEANING.... PEOPLE WHO DONT GO ALONG WITH THE MAINSTREAM BELIEFS....."
No sir. The WWCG was not a cult because it observed the Sabbath, or refrained from eating pork. It was a cult, just as is LCG, because of the control of leadership over the physical and spiritual lives of the membership, and the apparent lust for that control on the part of the membership.PAUL...................
Paul ,I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT LCG, BUT NO ONE HAS EXERTED CONTROL OVER ME, SUCH AS YOU SPEAK OF. THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THE BIBLE TELLS US TO DO,AND NOT TO DO, AND WE ARE TAUGHT THAT. IF ONE DOESN'T WANT TO OBEY THE BIBLE ,THEN HE SHOULDN'T BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE HE IS A REBEL...
LCG Member,
Methinks you are just totally brainwashed from reading these posts of yours. After all you do not seem to see the forest for the trees! Do me a favor and take Spanky's admontion to "Check him out". You might not want to see it, but you would be a better person for it. The TRUTH does hurt sometimes.
rod 2
lcg member said...MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ WHAT JESUS SAID TO THE RELIGIOUS KNOW-IT-ALLS OF HIS DAY...
My Comment: Aren't you one?.............
FUNNY, HOW PEOPLE CAN THINK ALIKE IN DIFFERENT WAYS, I'VE BEEN THINKING THE SAME ABOUT YOU!
My Comment: Nope! I'm not a religious know-it-all. Unlike you cult members, I'm always learning and unlearning, because I'm not always right. Why do you have to shout?
YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT HOW WRONG WE ARE AND WHEN WE SHOW YOUR FAULTS YOU APPARENTLY HAVE NOTHING TO COME BACK WITH BUT INSULTS AND PUTDOWNS.
My Comment: So, my faults are...? Come on, show me my faults.
THATS BASICALLY ALL YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT SEEMS. BUT TO CALL US A CULT IS NOT AN INSULT TO ME, BECAUSE THE CHURCH OF GOD WAS CALLED A SECT IN THE BIBLE, AND THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME BASIC MEANING....
My Comment: Buzzzz! Wrong! A sect is different than a cult. YOU are in a cult. I know you, or I should say those that brainwashed you, think that you are in the same category as the early Christian church, but you're not.
PEOPLE WHO DONT GO ALONG WITH THE MAINSTREAM BELIEFS..... AND I HAVE CERTAINLY SEEN NOTHING ON THIS SITE TO MAKE ME THINK ANY DIFFERENTLY.
My Comment: I think you have me confused with someone else. I don't follow mainstream religion. They are just as wrong as you are, because they follow men's ideas, just as you do.
YOU SET YOURSELVES UP AS OUR JUDGES TELLING US HOW WRONG WE ARE WHEN YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE ONES WHOM YOU ARE PUTTING DOWN.
My Comment: Did I say that I was better than you?
AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WE BELIEVE, EVIDENTLY.
My Comment: I don't? How do you know?
IF YOU DID YOU WOULD THAT MOST UF US TRY TO FOLLOW WHAT THE BIBLE TELLS US, AND NOT WHAT ANY MAN TELLS US TO DO. YOU ARE THE
ONES WHICH HAVE THINGS BACKWARDS...
My Comment: Does the Bible tell you that men are to lord it over you, to be the money collectors, or to have the preminence? Does the Bible teach the doctrines of "ordination", "bishops", "ministers", "deacons", "hierarchy of men", positions of authority over others? What about "money tithing"? Does the Bible tell you to adopt the Jewish calendar as if it is the "sacred calendar"? Now, don't tell me that you came up with all of these "true" doctrines by reading the Bible. Didn't MEN teach you these things? You are not following the Bible when you believe these things. You are following men. So, who has things backwards?
Steve K
What is MOST SAD is that parents will send their children here, thinking that they will be taught what HWA instilled in them.
Instead, HQ has been, and is presently, privily changing what we learned and proved under HWA; they deny Christ using this man to bring them to the truth,
Accordingly, they plan on using this University to secretly bring in damnable changes in doctrines under the radar screen (just as they have secretly brought in the other changes). They will indoctrinate our youth who will then be against their parents and older faithful members.
As this website so clearly documented, Dr. Germano has been less than supportive of the origins of the American and British peoples, as taught by HWA, and he was certainly was not supportive of RCM. Maybe that has changed now that RCM is changing, and is willing to use him to help bring in damnable heresies.
Make no mistake about it: These men are false teachers that teach falsehoods and they do lie regularly. They have an agenda, and it is a repeat of the Tkach Era all over again.
Anonymous said...
What is MOST SAD is that parents will send their children here, thinking that they will be taught what HWA instilled in them.
My Comment: And, they will learn more false information, just like their parents learned false information under the great exercising authority(Matt. 20:25) of HWA.
Instead, HQ has been, and is presently, privily changing what we learned and proved under HWA;
My Comment: What is it that you proved under HWA?
they deny Christ using this man to bring them to the truth,
My Comment: Why would Christ use a false prophet, a plagiarizer, and a liar?
Steve K
Just a side note: the proper spelling of the English second-person plural/formal (akin to the French 'vous') is "y'all", not "ya'll".
Just a side note: the proper spelling of the English second-person plural/formal (akin to the French 'vous') is "y'all", not "ya'll".
well, oh yeah...iffin we want yur'alls input, we'll axe ya! :)
If we'uns don't axe, then don't tell us'ins nuttin! Now crack that winder and mash that button an' on with the show.
To all of you,Re; LCG, I said earlier I have seen nothing better on this site, still haven't. All I've seen here is a bunch of invectives, judgments, name calling and worse. whatever you think of LCG you are just as bad, no! worse. I'm beginning to think none of you would see the truth if you tripped and fell right on it.It doesn't matter what HWA did or others do. Every one will be judged by their own deeds including all of You......... and to whom it may concern, I have been writing in caps to distinguish my post's from others, because I haven't figured out how to do things any different. Thats another thing I have been saying, we can't seem to do anything to suit some of you...
My Comment: Does the Bible tell you that men are to lord it over you, to be the money collectors, or to have the preminence? Does the Bible teach the doctrines of "ordination", "bishops", "ministers", "deacons", "hierarchy of men", positions of authority over others? What about "money tithing"? Does the Bible tell you to adopt the Jewish calendar as if it is the "sacred calendar"? Now, don't tell me that you came up with all of these "true" doctrines by reading the Bible. Didn't MEN teach you these things? You are not following the Bible when you believe these things. You are following men. So, who has things backwards?
Steve K
LCG MEMBER said...
To all of you,Re; LCG, I said earlier I have seen nothing better on this site, still haven't. All I've seen here is a bunch of invectives, judgments, name calling and worse. whatever you think of LCG you are just as bad, no! worse. I'm beginning to think none of you would see the truth if you tripped and fell right on it.It doesn't matter what HWA did or others do. Every one will be judged by their own deeds including all of You......... and to whom it may concern, I have been writing in caps to distinguish my post's from others, because I haven't figured out how to do things any different. Thats another thing I have been saying, we can't seem to do anything to suit some of you...
My Comment; What about my comment above? Are you just going to ignore it?
Steve K
Steve said...
My Comment: Does the Bible tell you that men are to lord it over you, to be the money collectors, or to have the preminence? Does the Bible teach the doctrines of "ordination", "bishops", "ministers", "deacons", "hierarchy of men", positions of authority over others? What about "money tithing"? Does the Bible tell you to adopt the Jewish calendar as if it is the "sacred calendar"? Now, don't tell me that you came up with all of these "true" doctrines by reading the Bible. Didn't MEN teach you these things? You are not following the Bible when you believe these things. You are following men. So, who has things backwards?........................ALL I CAN TELL YOU IN THIS IS READ THE BOOK , THATS WHERE YOU'LL FIND IT!!!
LCG MEMBER said...
Steve said...
My Comment: Does the Bible tell you that men are to lord it over you, to be the money collectors, or to have the preminence? Does the Bible teach the doctrines of "ordination", "bishops", "ministers", "deacons", "hierarchy of men", positions of authority over others? What about "money tithing"? Does the Bible tell you to adopt the Jewish calendar as if it is the "sacred calendar"? Now, don't tell me that you came up with all of these "true" doctrines by reading the Bible. Didn't MEN teach you these things? You are not following the Bible when you believe these things. You are following men. So, who has things backwards?
...ALL I CAN TELL YOU IN THIS IS READ THE BOOK , THATS WHERE YOU'LL FIND IT!!!
My Comment: Give me about five Scriptures to prove your side.
Steve K
"I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT LCG, BUT NO ONE HAS EXERTED CONTROL OVER ME, SUCH AS YOU SPEAK OF."
I know about LCG, and from experience I know that for the most part you are oblivious to any control, because you agree with those actions. Just as in the WWCG, members, when abused and controlled, really see nothing wrong with it. The controllers are God's ministers, after all.
"THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THE BIBLE TELLS US TO DO,AND NOT TO DO, AND WE ARE TAUGHT THAT. IF ONE DOESN'T WANT TO OBEY THE BIBLE ,THEN HE SHOULDN'T BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE HE IS A REBEL..."
That has nothing to do with my point. You are playing the Doctrinal Martyr Card again.
Paul
"I'm beginning to think none of you would see the truth if you tripped and fell right on it."
Oh, but many here have seen, and studied your "truth" which is warmed over Armstrongism, a quasi-mixture of The Old Covenant and the New Covenant (oil and water) and they have found it wanting, according to the Bible.
LCG MEMBER said...
Corky said...He meant the idol worshippers 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? He was not .Talking
about other christians.... WHAT OTHER CHRISTIANS? The COG people were the only christians at that time"
You don't know a lot of early christian history, do you?
". . And... Come Out of "her" the "great city" i.e. "Mystery Babylon" which can be easily shown to be Jerusalem... Yeah, I have read that too, but don't believe it
Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all..... I advse you to read the whole chapter of Rev 18... You seem to be the one who is mixed up."
Perhaps you should just read the first 3 verses of Revelation (Rev.1:1-3) and explain how that means thousands of years in the future.
" and to whom it may concern, I have been writing in caps to distinguish my post's from others, because I haven't figured out how to do things any different. Thats another thing I have been saying, we can't seem to do anything to suit some of you..."
The plural of "post" is "posts", without an apostrophe.
As to how to distinguish your posts from others, well, you are already posting as "lcg member", but if that isn't distinguished enough, you are free to create another posting nickname. It's easy.
And, just add to what others have stated: we are NOT "know-it-alls", we don't claim to have "all truth" or anything like that. But we do believe that not all "truth" comes in one convenient box. And we don't believe that truth--whether or not we believe that it comes from the Bible, or from many other sources--is monopolized by anyone who claims that monopoly, as was the case in the old WCG, and is pretty much still the case, with differences in degree, in the ACOG's. You have claimed that you haven't been forced to believe anything in LCG. You claim to read the Bible for yourself. My only suggestion: sit down, be honest with yourself, and ask yourself if you read/study the Bible, including reading a variety of scholarly commentaries about the history of scriptural compilation and the historical context of the writing of the scriptures, on your own terms, or whether you really glean most of your perspective from what is stated by the leaders and ministers in your church.
When I was counseled for baptism, at the tender age of eighteen, the then-dean-of-students at AC-Pasadena asked me if I had "proven" with certainty to myself that the WCG was the one true church. Could it be, instead, the Jehovah's Witnesses, or maybe the Mormons? Or maybe Buddism or whatever is the "truth"? I had of course not investigated any of that, and really had no desire to. Over the previous several years, I had been thoroughly indoctrinated into the idea of HWA having restored long-lost truth, and that only in WCG (with the possible exception of some remnants of other seventh-day observing groups in scattered areas around the world) was the presence of God evident.
Perhaps you did investigate a lot more than I did. Well, at last I DID start to investigate, and to question. And my "eyes were opened", as it were, although you might say that I had eaten of the forbidden fruit. What I actually did was start to think for myself. And that made all the difference, for which I have been grateful for many years.
Respectfully, and without shouting,
Camfinch
Corky said...Perhaps you should just read the first 3 verses of Revelation (Rev.1:1-3) and explain how that means thousands of years in the future................WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE FUTURE? THE SCRIPTURES I WAS TALKING ABOUT CERTAINLY DIDN'T , THEY ARE SPEAKING OF RIGHT AFTER JESUS RETURNS. NOW I ASK YOU TO READ REV CHAPTERS 17 & 18. IT IS SELF EXPLAINTORY.
"What is MOST SAD is that parents will send their children here, thinking that they will be taught what HWA instilled in them."
Yes, it is very sad that parents would want their children to be taught what Herbert Armstrong used to instill in people.
Ok,
So Spanky and his gang can get up on any given day, say one thing, then the next day say something diametrically opposite and no one is to notice, or say anything if they do notice. I guess you must just check you brains at the door, don't think just do as they say , and then everything will be just rosy. WOW! "Ya'll" need to get a reality check if you can just overlook LCG as they are now and overlook HWA as well. If'n ya'll would take the blinders off, maybe just maybe you could see the light of truth and overcome the cultish sect you are in.
rod 2
camfinch said.......Respectfully, and without shouting,
Camfinch ;I say to each his own.. And I will say that I know that everything was not perfect in the wwc, everything is not perfect in lcg, everything was not perfect in the early church, that is obvious from scripture, but show me the perfect church if you know where it is. Respectfully, and without shouting.
Some anonymous nincompoop posted the following:
"'Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful,' the Pope has said."
Trouble is, he didn't say anything like that at all. That's a completely fake quote, invented by someone who obviously is only pretending to be a journalist.
If you'd like to get a better idea of what the Pope said, and why he said it, try this:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0701686.htm
"Besides, if the Pope would just take the LCG University course, he'd learn that hell is a quick, painless burn up."
Well, he might "hear" that, but he certainly wouldn't "learn" it, since he already has an excellent grasp of biblical eschatology, Christian doctrine, philosophy, and logic.
Paul said...That has nothing to do with my point. You are playing the Doctrinal Martyr Card again.
Paul, that has everything to do with your point. we are not to be free spirits to go and come and believe anything we wish. If you want to do that,then you need to be in a mainstream church ..
It seems to me LCG Member, that it is okay to overlook LCG and their "ways" that conflict with God's way because you have not been able to find the "perfect" church. Okay-then why does the same church not tolerate "imperfection" from its members? Or tolerate someone that is "different" and expect them to be perfect before they can come to church services and are baptised and receive the Holy Spirit , that is needed to "overcome" so they will fit in?
If one is known by their "fruits" what is LCG then? I firmly believe that using the criteria given by LCG for that "benchmark", one can easily see them for what they are, and it ain't pretty. I seriously doubt they would be anything better than a "false church" and of "Satan" by using that criteria that has been expounded over the years by HWA and now LCG.
Just read what they say, challenge them on the issues of "honesty", and if the "author of confusion" is "Satan" and he is the "father" of all "lies", then LCG, WCG under HWA qualifies for that hands down! This Living University will be a "big' joke if they continue on in their "fashion" of "fabrication" of their resource material that they plan on using to teach these courses offered by LCG. I will bet LU will not have the textbooks used for this course readily available for those poor sheep who "fork' over the "bread' to pay for the degrees they will receive. It will be "just believe me, i would not lead you astray" approach. Yes brethren, just check you mind at the door.Don't think, jsut "pay and pray"
rod 2
Jared said...Well, he might "hear" that, but he certainly wouldn't "learn" it, since he already has an excellent grasp of biblical eschatology, Christian doctrine, philosophy, and logic
Lighten up Mr. Jared. You don't have to run to the defense of everything Catholic everytime you hear a word or concept that contains something Catholic. We know you are a true Catholic Believer.
I was being a bit playful about WCG doctrine and answers THEY would give.
To the anonymous poster who was concerned that the new LCG university would not instill in members' children what HWA had instilled in them:
1) Does your belief system allow for growth in grace and knowledge? If so, what if the new growth expands upon or changes some of the teachings of HWA?
2) Do you believe that if error is present, it should be corrected? Or should the error be considered to be off limits simply because it was taught by HWA?
3) Assuming that your post was other than satirical, do you believe in the infallibility of HWA? Unfortunately, I've encountered quite a number of ACOG members who seemingly do believe in this infallibility, as if HWA were Jesus Christ himself, or one of the prophets or original 12 Apostles.
Up until the Bible was translated from Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and Latin, there was no accountability. People were forced to simply take the word of the allegedly learned ones who taught them every sabbath or Sunday. If you read the history of the Bible, you will learn that some zealots actually wanted to kill the early translators of the Bible. These zealots did not want the common people to be able to read it and to think and grow in grace and knowledge by and for themselves. Sadly, in the ACOGs, doing one's own research, thinking for one's self, and reaching one's own conclusions often got members in deep trouble, even to the point of disfellowshipment!
You may want to carefully consider your thoughts as to Herbert W. Armstrong's infallibility! Single sourcing is always a potentially dangerous practice. Some might actually use the term "cult" to describe those who do, although I know you guys are offended by that term, so I won't use it!
BB
Yeah..I agree, This whole posting has gotten a few hundred miles off topic and deteriorated into a scripture slugfest seasoned with righteous goofiness. Time for a new posting.
"Paul, that has everything to do with your point. we are not to be free spirits to go and come and believe anything we wish. If you want to do that,then you need to be in a mainstream church .."
You're doing it again.
Example:
Paul: The price of cotton has risen.
lcgmember: We can't just do what we want like all the mainstream churches. Jesus didn't do away with the Law like the mainstream churches say. If you want to go your on way, to do your own thing, see where that gets you.
Paul: ????
Paul
"POPE-AUDIENCE Mar-28-2007 (550 words) With photos. xxxi
Pope says unity with pope guarantees faith is the one taught by Jesus
By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The teaching of the bishops and unity with the pope guarantee that one's faith truly is the faith taught by Jesus to his apostles, Pope Benedict XVI said.
"The true Gospel is that imparted by the bishops, who have received it in an uninterrupted chain from the apostles," the pope said March 28 at his weekly general audience."
Hey...how is this any different than the COG's loyalty to HWA and so on and so forth?
Hmmmm, sounds like an elaborate plan to sell sermon tapes for fun and profit.
" It was a cult, just as is LCG, because of the control of leadership over the physical and spiritual lives of the membership,..."
if the leadership has any control at all over a member's physical & spritual life it's because that member gave it to them....and unfortunately those whose faith is weak tend to do just that.
"LCG MEMBER said...
To all of you,Re; LCG, I said earlier I have seen nothing better on this site, still haven't. All I've seen here is a bunch of invectives, judgments, name calling and worse."
keep in mind that there are very few Church members here, so don't get upset if an insult or two gets thrown your way.....we know the true source of the attitude that dominates here, so don't hold it against these folks
The mindset on display in this thread is indicative of the dangers of the COG legacy.
Take 1974, when dozens of WCG ministers left over a number of points of disagreement. Sweeping excommunications followed, after which they formed the Associated Churches of God. It was the clear position of HWA, GTA and the WCG that the Associated Churches were not part of the "true church."
Ironically, four years later Garner Ted was disfellowshipped and subsequently founded the Church of God, International. He was marked. Members were to have no fellowship with him. It was clearly the position of his father and the WCG that he was not part of the "true church." Those ministers who chose to affiliate with GTA at that time or in the intervening years were not true ministers.
But today, ministers from those organizations would be viewed by most in the various COG organizations as brothers and fellow Sabbath-keeping Christians.
Why? What changed? How did they go from anathema to approved?
The fact is, the basis for no longer being part of the true church was no longer being in step with Herbert W. Armstrong. That's it. Nothing else.
Clearly, there were people who came to a knowledge of the Sabbath and other doctrines through the Associated Churches, and the Church of God, International; were baptized; and began worshipping entirely through those churches, having had nothing to do with the WCG. Presumably, the same thing occurred in various other of the "heretical" offshoots of that era.
But it didn't matter. They were not in step with HWA, so they were heretics. "Proofs" were trotted out to show how this was true. They were not part of the "true church."
Yet today they are! Sure, Flurry doesn't think so, and neither do Pack and a few others. But, by and large, they're considered part of the fold. Look at Ron Dart. He went with GTA, then on his own. But he's OK today, even downright popular.
It's all indicative of an ever-shifting set of principles, changed as needed to "prove" whatever is most convenient at the time. "Nothing has changed," we hear, while in fact just about everything has. And then, the ever-present beaut: "It doesn't matter what HWA did...."
It's exhausting. It's sad. It's unpredictable. It's inconsistent. And yet, adherents insist it's somehow "right," while never being able to pin the tail on the Correctness donkey.
Which means that those who disagree, including most posters on this board, can only be viewed as wrong. Case closed. Ha, ha. "You lose." Bible says so.
It gets so ridiculous. "Nyah-nyah-nyah" is not an adequate substitute for genuine credibility or consistency.
As for Michael Germano and Living University, it appears they'll trot out the true-church stuff and continue this circus. Predictable for LCG, but a strange about-face for Germano.
Some anonymous nincompoop said: "Lighten up Mr. Jared. You don't have to run to the defense of everything Catholic everytime you hear a word or concept that contains something Catholic. We know you are a true Catholic Believer."
Lighten up, anonymous nincompoop, you don't have to get all worked up just because somebody found out that your didn't get your facts straight.
Just in case anybody cares, here's another link to an article about the papal homily that the anonymous nincompoop had misrepresented:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/
showarchive.php?date=2007-03-26
Notice the night-and-day difference between the CNA report and the nincompoop's report. It's a degree of inaccuracy that is Armstrongian in scope.
y the way, the ".htm" got cut off of the previous link to the CNS story. Should be
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/
stories/cns/0701686.htm
"Hey...how is this any different than the COG's loyalty to HWA and so on and so forth?"
Well, for one thing, there have been Popes for almost 2,000 years, whereas there have only been Armstrongists for less than 80 years. . . .
Hey, I know you didn't really want an answer, but you did ask.
"we know the true source of the attitude that dominates here, so don't hold it against these folks"
Then you're in good company here, for we also have a pretty good idea of the true source of your attitude, BAP.
Are there people floating around in the ACOGS that still believe that Simon Magus founded the Catholic Church, that the RCC is the great wh0re of Babylon, and that the pope is the beast or antiChrist?
Such folks had better worry about their gardens! Bugs Bunny might come and steal their carrots!
BB
Jared Olar says
Just in case anybody cares, here's another link to an article about the papal homily that the anonymous nincompoop had misrepresented:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/
showarchive.php?date=2007-03-26
Notice the night-and-day difference between the CNA report and the nincompoop's report. It's a degree of inaccuracy that is Armstrongian in scope.
y the way, the ".htm" got cut off of the previous link to the CNS story. Should be
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/
stories/cns/0701686.htm
_______________________
I wasn't able to spot the article. Can you point it out Jared?
Thewe awe vewetibwe tweasuwe chests that the ACOGs fowwow, with the cawwots dangwing in fwont of them.
Are those cawwots weawwy weal?
What Byker Bob at post 5:19 , said about Simon Magus is interesting. If one was to read Living Church of God literature on the subject, they will see references that were purely made up to bolster this belief that Simon Magus was the founder of the Catholic Church.The only reason to do this is to deceive. I suppose if i was to take the time and go back the same stuff was being done by Herb / Hoeh and company to come up with the same crap.
rod 2
My own notion is that Simon Magus could have ended up being the anti-Christ if the time had been right.
Anonymous said...
It seems to me LCG Member, that it is okay to overlook LCG and their "ways" that conflict with God's way because you have not been able to find the "perfect" church. Okay-then why does the same church not tolerate "imperfection" from its members? Or tolerate someone that is "different" and expect them to be perfect before they can come to church services and are baptised and receive the Holy Spirit , that is needed to "overcome" so they will fit in? .............................I don't know where you are coming from,or where you got this info, but It is very obvious that you don't know of which you speak... That is not true.you did not get it from LCG...RM in a sermon a while back spoke about that very subject , telling us to give someone new a chance to "catch up". Although we rather when someone new comes, they know a little of what we believe, so the difference in doctrine won't be a total surprise to them. Lot's of things posted on this site are gossip and, well, lies by those who for whatever reasons try to keep things stirred up against us...There is an old saying, believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see. that goes double for those who for some reason want to see someone hurt...
ROD 2...What Byker Bob at post 5:19 , said about Simon Magus is interesting. If one was to read Living Church of God literature on the subject, they will see references that were purely made up to bolster this belief that Simon Magus was the founder of the Catholic Church.The only reason to do this is to deceive. I suppose if i was to take the time and go back the same stuff was being done by Herb / Hoeh and company to come up with the same crap........................................................... ROD 2 please do me a favor and using "ask.com", type in ''The real first pope.( it came up at the top on my search page) It's a pretty long article, so you might want to scroll down to where it says FIRST PROOF...Please read all the proofs then tell me that LCG is wrong about Simon Magus. The article uses mostly Scriptures to prove this. If this isn't proof enough for you, then nothing is...
LCG Member,
WHY i might ask did not the writers in their articles referenecing Simon Magus, use non-existant sources, quote out of context, etc. if they had the proof you state? It would be simple to just not decieve or outright lie about it. If you think maybe they have just been sloppy in all of this, i would ask you to check it out yourself.
After all i have some e-mails from a member of LCG (or ex-member probably) dating back several years where he tried in vain to get them yahoo's out there at LCG to change this stuff. If they were unwilling to do so, would show that they are sticking to their guns and keeping the lie going strong.
So LCG Member, ask your pastor why so much of what LCG writes will not hold up under proper scrutiny? Then when you prove this to yourself , you may just ask the obvious about Why they would use this method of proof?, when "I, LCG Member can go online to 'Ask.com' and come up with the answer so simply?
rod 2
Oh,
LCG Member,
I almiost forgot, Dr. Hoeh perpetuated some of this deceptive "proofing" when he quoted... ... er-- Mis Quoted,William Caves "Primitive Christianity" on the subject of "Peter" and "Simon Magus".
It seems like the writers since Hoeh and early WCG, have all just assumed Hoeh was on the up and up and would not lie to them all.
If you have a copy of this book and as well as the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, you can check out the references they use yourself. By the way DON'T use the online version of the 1911, because if you compare the real hard copy with this , you will find that Part of the article on Simon Magus is missing and it picks up in the middle of the next article that is about a Simon (NOT Magus Though). This is where LCg evidently got off track, but won't own up to it. So as long as they will continue to Perpetuate the Lie, i will continue hamming my points home.
rod 2
Rod2 Do you at least concede the article shows proof that Simon Magus was the Catholic "simon peter"? Or did you even read it?
LCG Member,
I will go read it after i post this.
Have you read what the church has over the years given as "proof" on this subject?
If you do would you concede that they have been in gross error?
rod 2
LCG cannot afford a down payment on a free meal let alone a University.
If by a miracle they do succeed, it will be the U of I the self centered and self-absorbed pronoun problem university. In other words, I know more about God then the average American therefore I must be closer to God then most.
How unfortunate that we have been duped to think the more knowledge of God we were taught in COG (I use the term taught loosely) the more righteous we are towards God. When in fact we have allowed this religious knowledge to separate us from God. As I learn about God’s love, mercy and justice that he has towards us I learn to move much further from that preverbal box of religion that I let COG put me in or should I say the Pharisees put me in.
I remember when a minister once told me that RCM once said it is ok to tell a white lie when it is to the benefit of his church. So when it comes to the University, I think we just heard yet another white lie. (just my opinion)
If this statement is true then I thank God for waking me up.
Remember God did not create this COG mess; we let a few men do that for us.
God wants us out of the box why do they want
LCG Member,
I went there and read it and thought it was interesting! Only in regards to those so-called "Proofs". WOW! I guess if i only read those "prooftexts" there i would come away with that thought , EXCEPT i believe in putting all the scriptures together on a subject instead of cherry-picking as this was. Since the article you referred me to quoted Acts 12:3-4, why i might ask was not Acts 10,and Acts 11 not brought up?
I know you have been indoctrinated with this type of "scholarship", but it only leads you down the road to "narrow - mindedness" that the cog's have brainwashed you into. I know i once was and now know better.
Also if you go to "Ask.com and type in 'Simon Peter', or 'simon Magus' and 'First pope' , see what comes up and read ALL of those instead of cherrypicking as you did to me. Then come back and have a conversation with me.
rod 2
JIM M,
You must know the same minister i do, i was told the same thing as RCM said it was ok to lie as long as it furthered the gospel.
rod 2
LCG Member,
I am soooo sorry, I forgot Acts 15 in my post to you. Especially since we be doing the proof texting.
rod 2
LCG Member,
WOW! I am having fun with that wonderful "ask.com" site you gave me. I typed in "False prophet" It came up with a biblical 7 point test for False Prophets that is --get this---scriptually based----!!!.
Now these you would agree would apply to the biblical definition and the recognition of a "false prophet" by GOD"s own instruction book.
Now type in "Herbert Armstrong - False prophet", you get a whopping 6020 entries. Pick and choose away, for the overwhelming fast glances , they were not making old Herb look good in that department. Now Go to "Roderick Meredith" a whopping 31,900 entries and just scroll down a few and read what it says about his supporting the false prophecies of Herb.
My! oh! My!, i sure am glad you showed me this wonderful reference site .
Thanks again,
rod 2
I went to the Ask.Com webpage and under Herbert Armstrong - Pedophile, there were no less than 449 articles including "The History Channel". Open the History channel link and read where Gavin's name is mentioned in this.
Very interesting what someone started here, maybe a new thread can be mustered up for this one website.
anon
Hey ya'll,
Ask.Com has Byker Bob's 666 analogy of the 18 truths, now because LCG member has it as a "know all", it must be true.
yippie! -
Ask.com appears to be simply another search engine, like Google, MSN, Yahoo, etc. In fact, many of the same sites come up, regardless of the search engine used.
Really, in this day and age, there is no excuse for ignorance where Simon Magus is concerned. There are many theories, one of the stranger being that he was a cypher for the Apostle Paul, reflecting the battle between Pauline and Petrine theology.
The proto-Catholics regarded Simon Magus as being a Gnostic heretic. He was a Samaritan (everybody know who the Samaritans were and where they came from?), and a magician. His original written works were largely destroyed because they were considered heresy.
HWA held him responsible for the shift in direction which Christianity allegedly took, shortly after the lives of the original apostles. Others have held Paul responsible for this, although HWA and his lackeys always attempted to demonstrate that Paul's precepts were in complete harmony with those of the other apostles. It is possible that there really was nothing sinister afoot, just basic differences in standards for the Gentile Christians, as compared to the more rigorous requirements applying to Jewish Christians.
I've noticed that it doesn't do a heck of a lot of good for an ex-COGger to post information which conflicts with what HWA taught. Because it's coming from us, and disagrees with "the apostle", it becomes tainted and suspect. So, I'd strongly suggest that anyone who feels that Simon Magus was the first "pope", or founded the RCC, do a little bit of open-minded and independent research. You might be just mildly surprised with what you turn up.
What if the Beast power ends up being the final ressurrection of the Ottoman Empire, and Moslems begin enslaving and torturing the non-Moslem world, in an effort to convert everyone to their religion? Under such a scenario, Catholic Christians would be in the same boat as ACOG Christians and might end up helping one another survive!
BB
Rod2, Did you even read the article? Acts 10 & 11 was not brought up because they had nothing to do with what the article was about...Read it! Near 45 A.D., we find Peter being cast into prison at Jerusalem (Acts 12:3, 4). In 49 A.D., he was still in Jerusalem, this time attending the Jerusalem Council.....At the times the Catholics believe Peter was in Rome, The Bible clearly shows he was elsewhere. As previously mentioned there are many supposed historical accounts of Peter in Rome but none of them are first hand accounts and should not be put above the many accounts of The Bible. ( The Bible account plainly shows that Peter was not in Rome, and whoever the "catholic peter" was he couldn't have been the Apostle Peter)...Talk about being brainwashed, seems you have done quite a good job on your own self.
LCG Member,
Yes i did read it and under the "proofs" it mentions how Simon Peter could not even have anything to do with Gentiles as he was the Apostle to the Jews, I brought up Acts 10 and 11 to counter that.
And go on down to the other proofs and please show me where the quote from the 11th Edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica about Simon Magus is mentioned as such therein.
To quote Romans and Not the other scriptures in the bible that would make the so-called iron clad "proof" about Simon Peter is what i was referring to about using all the scriptures on the subject.
David Jon Hill wrote a two part GN article years ago on something like the 12 Rules of Bible Study. In this is mentioned what the article you reference on Ask.Com. does and says you cannot and should not approach bible study nor doctrine this way. Thus i will ask you to drag out your old copy, and see if you find anything wrong with David Jon Hill's conclusion in this matter. Ask your minister or Headquarters, i have a friend that has and LCG and surely WCG under HWA thought so and said it is a really good article pertainant to today.
So you asked me to read it, i did, i found problems with their quotes of a secular source, have asked you to verify their stand on that and ask you to read how to study the bible and showed you what Acts 10 and 11 have to do with the article. I hope that will clear up any confusion. By the way have you wondered why the COG's cannot be honest when they cite a secular source to back up the Simon Magus thing? I mean if they had all the proof just using the bible, why would they resort to the deception, lies and what not? And thus i would not say i am brainwashed as i really do read and "check it out" so not to be brainwashed into accepting just what someone writes or says.
rod 2
LCG Member,
I forgot in my last post that "Proof Two" in the Ask.Co. article you wrote about, has in it a reference to Romans 15:16 to show that Paul was "THE Minister to the Gentiles". The article says after this that this proof is so simple to see, how plain etc. EXCEPT my Bible and the one RCM uses the NKJV says "A" not "The" Minister to the Gentiles. I suuppose if you had read these as you said and you said the scriptures were accurate, i wonder how that slipped by you? The simple "A" instead of "The" changes a whole lot in the intended conveyance here in Romans perhaps.
rod 2
LCG member: The Bible does not say that Peter was in Rome, and it also does not say that Peter was not in Rome.
There are other reliable historians from the apostolic and early Christian eras, and if you've been around long enough, you might have heard their names mentioned by Doc Hoeh. Clement, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Lactantius, and Ignatius of Antioch are among those who either directly state, or imply, that Peter was most definitely in Rome.
One Armstrong tactic has always been to go to outdated reference materials, such as ancient versions of Encyclopedia Brittanica, to do a little proof-texting and make it appear that some valid research has been done. However, these days, with all of the new information coming to us from archaeologists and historians, you want to go to the most recent books on these topics. Inscriptions on Peter's tomb in Rome leave no doubt whatsoever that the Apostle Peter's bones are contained therein.
I'd suggest you visit the following site: http://www.catholic.com/library/Was_Peter_in_Rome.asp
Evangelicals tend to want to "prove" that Peter was never in Rome for some of the same motives shared with Armstrongites.
BB
"I wasn't able to spot the article. Can you point it out Jared?"
Northerner, I was able to find both articles with the URLs that I posted. Here's an alternate URL for the CNA story:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/
new.php?n=8949
Keep in mind, however, that I have inserted a carriage return in the URL right after the ".com/" because I want to make sure the URL isn't lopped off on the right.
LCG Member said: "At the times the Catholics believe Peter was in Rome, The Bible clearly shows he was elsewhere."
And when exactly do Catholics believe Peter was in Rome? It's not like there's an official doctrine that says, "In the 40s A.D. Peter was in Rome." The doctrine is that Peter went to Rome, ministered there, strengthened the Church, and directed that his successor bishops in Rome have the primacy that Jesus granted to him. Specific dates are not a part of the doctrine, nor does the doctrine require that St. Peter reside in Rome from 40 A.D. until his death. I know some Catholics who believe that St. Peter didn't arrive in Rome until about 62 A.D.
"As previously mentioned there are many supposed historical accounts of Peter in Rome but none of them are first hand accounts and should not be put above the many accounts of The Bible."
St. Clement of Rome, writing around 95 A.D., mentions the martyrdoms of Saints Peter and Paul. He does not say they were martyred in Rome, but the presumption is that it was implied.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing around 110 A.D., sent a letter to the Roman Church in which he refers to the ministries of both Peter and Paul in Rome. Note, he actually told the Romans themselves that Peter and Paul had ministered among them. So, by that time it was taken for granted among Christians that Peter and Paul had ministered and been martyred in Rome.
Around 170 A.D., Gaius refers to the tombs of Saints Peter and Paul. This is the first known reference to the tombs of the two most important apostles of the early Church. No other church has ever claimed to have those tombs.
So the historical record is pretty solid that Peter was in Rome. Only conspiracy kook fundamentalists deny it.
"The Bible account plainly shows that Peter was not in Rome"
Really? The last reference to Peter in the Bible is in II Peter, which places Peter in "Babylon." That was a well known code for "Rome." We can rule out the Mesopotamian Babylon and the Egyptian Babylon, since there is no trace of any visit of Peter to those towns. The biblical tradition supports the ancient tradition of Peter's residence and death in Rome.
"and whoever the 'catholic peter' was he couldn't have been the Apostle Peter."
There was only one Peter in the early Church, and history knows of only one burial place of that Peter. Whether or not you accept the Catholic claims of papal primacy, it's irrational to assert that Peter never went to Rome or isn't buried there.
LCG Member,
Jared is quite correct in this post and also your Ask.com post for "The Real First Pope" has more flaws as well. The article seems to not be able to quote the bible accurately such as Act 8:10-11 under the heading of "Who is Simon Magus?". In this article the author says that in Acts 8:10-11 "Simon is clearly stated as being the one who practiced Magic and Paganism". Now since you blasted me with not reading the article twice or more, i ask you now if you read it and as an added bonus "Checked out the scriptures and secular references"?.
For some reason i cannot find in Acts 8:10-11 the subject so plainly stated by the author about Paganism.
In case you need to look up the word - Ask.com has under the heading "Defining paganism" an article that defines the subject and i just cannot seem to find that in the scripture quoted in the article you trumped out to us here.
Also some of the reasoning given as "proof" in this article can be used to "prove" that you go to heaven when you die! This since when Christ was on the Cross , he stated that one of the other ones being crucified would be with him (Christ) in Paradise.
So as byker Bob pointed out , You cannot prove from the Bible that Peter was or was not in Rome.
rod 2
Seems Don Billingsley also wants to play the online university wild card. His COG-FF has an online course and it looks similar to the old 58 Lesson ACBCC......
http://www.acbcconline.us
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