Living University has lost its logo, but we're pleased to restore it for the benefit of AW readers (special thanks to "you-know-who" in Pasadena). Whoever designed it didn't take into account the shock/horror effect of anything resembling a cross on the hyper-Armstrong brethren. To be fair, it's doubtful that this rather amateur effort was ever intended to be anything other than a temporary fill-in. In any case, LCG pulled the offending artwork soon after the concerned emails started coming in from disturbed members.
Beginning with this posting comments on AW will be moderated. Hopefully this will help with the quality, and discourage the CAPS LOCK screamers. All opinions are welcome, but basic civility is definitely appreciated. Anonymous postings are fine, but preference will go to those identified by a pen name. Obviously there will be some delay between submitting and publishing, especially considering the difference in timezones between the US and New Zealand, but hopefully the payoff will be in more relevant material. The moderation policy will be reviewed mid-April.
53 comments:
Gavin,
I'm glad to see that this will be moderated. While blogs and forums are a place designed to discuss and debate opinions and thoughts and agree to disagree with mutual respect, it seems that here lately, after a few rounds of really relevant discussion on the topic you've posted, the discussion has gone completely off-top and a few ranters and ravers who show up to the party every time decide to spar rather viciously with one another and the rest of us walk away and shake our heads in disgust.
I think your blog is incredibly informative and provides an intelligent place to openly and cogently discuss things of relevance to both former COGers and current COGers. I've always counted on a non-biased presentation of news and facts here and I'm glad to see that you've instituted some controls to make sure that the blog/forum meets the goal you intended and the reasons why we all have it bookmarked in our Favorite places.
Thanks!
Thank you Gavin for upping the quality of the site. At least give it a try. Anonymity has it's place but so does authenticity. As mentioned in another posting, the COG's simply have to view their members now more as shareholders instead of sheep to be herded. Well except for the elite few of course who never grow themselves beyond their past.
Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements still ring true to me in getting back to what I knew as a kid, but had removed from me as a WCG believer. I don't intend to make these mistakes again.
Agreement 1
Be impeccable with your word - Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love. Be authentic.
Agreement 2
Don’t take anything personally - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.
Agreement 3
Don’t make assumptions - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.
Agreement 4
Always do your best - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.
Works for me. Painful at times of course too.
Thanks Gavin. I believe this will up the quality of the discussions and move us all past the mind spinning, that certain hot button issues and buzz words bring up over and over. We're all here to learn, not just recall.
I wish I had practiced these four simple truths from The Four Agreements. I think my dad taught them too me before my WCG experience altered their reality.
Agreement 1
Be impeccable with your word - Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love. Be true to yourself and practice open authenticity.
Agreement 2
Don’t take anything personally - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.
Agreement 3
Don’t make assumptions - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.
Agreement 4
Always do your best - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.
Simple yet profound. Painful but liberating.
Gavin said...Beginning with this posting comments on AW will be moderated.
My Comment: How boring! This is why I don't join other forums. Now you are doing the same thing. You are stifling free thought. Very few postings now.
Steve K
I kind of like the primeval "Living University" logo. I think it reflects the parent org quite well. Here are the reasons why..
1) Lots of squares, reflecting the "squareness" of its leadership
2) Hard Lines for the "Hardliners"
3) A gun "crosshairs sight" aimed right at the middle of the group.
Since the COG loves using initials, I would like to suggest that Living Online Universtiy be forever known from here on out as "LOU", which could be pronounced and used in the same fashion as the Brits use the word "LOO" for restroom facilities.
Glad to see the forum moderated, as most posts were wandering way too far from the original subject matter.
"LU"sseneheide !
Suggested revision for their slogan:
"The world, though deceived, is our campus."
Eons ago when I was a dedicated Armstrongite, some lay members told me about a statue in Ponca City, Oklahoma. They told me that it was a statue of Nimrod. When I finally saw the statue, I realized that it was merely the statue of an Native American chieftain done in some black, basaltic rock.
Finding hidden, paganistic symbolism is an avocation among Armstrongites, long before Dan Brown. Another example of majoring in the minors. Too much time spent with the likes of Alexander Hislop and Herman Hoeh.
I believe this is a propsensity born of gnostic desire, the desire to be privy to secret knowledge that only the select few can access and understand. No doubt this need for secret, exclusive knowledge is bound up in a clot of low self esteem and self-serving theology, a clot over some personal wound that just won't heal.
I remember a Number 8 Attack Speech at Spokesmans Club where the speaker identified the comic book hero Superman as Satan. The speaker dutifully pounded the lecturn and threw around comic books. The knowing looks, the smug smiles, the presumptuousness, the self satisfaction.
It would have been funny, but these odd quirks of behavior are rooted in a the deep soil of dysfunction, of a belief system gone awry. Shall we then laugh?
-- Neo
It would have been better, don't you think, to have the logo embedded with signs of the Zodiak?
They become concerned about the way a couple of lines accidentally intersect, but don't care about the porcine sources of vitamin D in all milk and milk products! What's COGdom coming to?
Regarding the new blog policy, more good is always accomplished when the rhetoric is turned down a couple of notches. Screaming generally occurs just before violence is introduced, and by that time, generally there isn't a lot of listening involved in the process. We might lose some of the spontanaity, but the quality of the discussion will probably increase. Screen names will aid in the tracking of and response to various ideas as they are introduced.
BB
This was discussed on Livingcog. The resemblence between it and the lolgo for the ELCA was mentioned. Soon after it was mentioned, that logo was pulled.
Tom Turner, on the board of regents of LU, sent an email (that was forwarded to me) said that it was not intended to be a cross.
-moderator,
Livingcog
Actually, I rather like the logo. Nice, neat little boxes to contain all the teachings & wisdom imparted by the faculty :-)
Livingcog moderator mentioned a "...resemblence between it and the lolgo for the ELCA..."
I took a look at the ELCA(Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) logo at:
http://www.elca.org/
To me, there precious little resemblance. Does one have to wear some special spectacles to see the resemblance.
Perhaps Spanky's minions have such spectacles to also see a resemblance between Living University and an actual place of learning useful information.
~Mel
"They told me that I needed their special eyeglasses to see better, so I got me a pair. But I finally figured out that the special eyeglasses were actually the CAUSE of my vision problem!"
Then it could be seen as a trinity, "the new logo", also by by checking out the meaning behind the three colors displayed one can see, sin of greed, sin of pride and purity.
lnrd
So when do you think the good Doctor Bob will write a little piece about when a cross is not a cross, but poor LU bowed to the weakness of its membership?
Glad to see the moderation here - I've seen other forums suffer from self absorbed participants that believe every posting is directed at them and requires their response. Hopefully two weeks time off will improve their perspective and their manners.
Neotherm,
The Nimrod thing brings back memories about "Europa on a bull" as pictured on the EU coins being the "Woman Riding the Beast" of revelation as per the various COG's. Of course anyone checking out that coinage would find it to be the "mother of Europe". But some of these people just cannot shake the coincidence as anything other than providence.
rod 2
I applaud your move Gavin.
Moderated replies.
Have Blog Will Travel.
lnrd
My first thought of the logo before reading the comment by Gavin , was " it's a boring logo, in a box "
I guess one can find a cross in all kinds of places, * if * one is looking for a cross in all kinds of places.
How many threw away their wedding rings years ago when the circle was thought to be pagan?
Anoneemoose*
* a registered pen name on ezboard
[i]My Comment: How boring! This is why I don't join other forums. Now you are doing the same thing. You are stifling free thought. Very few postings now.
Steve K [/i]
Steve, aren't you and others still free to think what you want? :)
Sometimes less is more.
Who wants to wade through the same rants and raves that have little meaning except to the one posting?
I find the news Gavin gives is enlightening to what is happening withion the various cog groups.
Sometimes a posters elucidation helps in broadening a view point not thought of by others.
That's my ' free thought ' of the day.
Hope I didn't bore you too much :)
~Moose~ the Anoneemoose
VonHowitzer said...
Glad to see the moderation here - I've seen other forums suffer from self absorbed participants that believe every posting is directed at them and requires their response. Hopefully two weeks time off will improve their perspective and their manners.
My Comment: Uh...where's the difference? Looks like the same ole same ole to me.
Gavin said...
"Hopefully this will help with the quality... basic civility is definitely appreciated... hopefully the payoff will be in more relevant material."
My Comment: Ha! What "quality". The only "civilty" and "relevance" I see is a "kissing up" to Gavin. Well, Gavin, at least you don't have to post this "uncivilized", "irrelevant" post.
Steve K
PS: to Steve K,
Another free thought to add.
Americans are not well known for patience.
Because of the time difference, we have to wait to see if we will be posted
( unless Gavin never sleeps :)
This should help build character if one is weak in the ‘patience category’.
I think that ‘free thinkers’ have the least amount of patience or they would take time to ‘think’ more about what they are posting in the first place.
( I should have thought more about adding this to the last post, before I hit publish comment)
~Moose~
Why we don't move on.
I endeavor to wean myself off COG sites about twice a month. The thought process goes something like this. Why do I care what anyone thinks any more about who's doing what and what's being done or not done? It doesn't serve me or make my life or day better to mull it over and over or come up with a better war story. The whole experience lies in my head and not in anything real.
We share our new backgrounds and some rant at others for making choices to follow new things because they seem like the same old things. But who cares? Life is choices and we can make whatever personal choices work for us far as I can tell.
After hanging out long enough on site such as this, we learn the players. There are the reasonable one...hurt but balanced, the angry ones, those given to shuffling the old prooftexts into new configurations to prove new ideas that are really old. We have those that repeat the same texts to prove that the old is the true after all. But I have failed to perceive ONE person who has been pursuaded out of how they feel into feeling differently based on the input of another on this same topic we all have in common...the implosion of the WCG and it's effects.
So I ask myself, why do I hang around? What the point? What is to be learned or gained to me personally (for I'm the one that has to live with the experience and process it into some meaningful expereince of some kind) by being here? Why is it difficult to give it up?
Do I want to convince someone of something new I feel works for me?
Not really.
Do I have a need to prove I was not one of them and without some blame for for something I don't understand was really going on?
Not really. I know who I am and who I was. I did the best I could for the intentions I had.
Do I need to find a way to hurt someone back for my perceived hurts and such?
Hmmm, getting closer maybe but I don't like that attitude in myself and would prefer to think I am not that shallow or petty. I've probably at least cost WCG, with my writings, the money I and all 36 of my relatives gave to WCG over 40 years. I couldn't be here if I had not been there and I don't mind being here. Painful? Yep...
I think I know my motive for staying or coming back after I leave for the third time.
I have yet to deal with the idea that "they" got away with it. I don't want them to "get away with it" whatever the "it" they got away with is. I don't particularly like that reason to hang around either. The fact is that they did get away with it, for now perhaps, but they surely did.
The Tkaches wrecked the church. Let's not worry at the moment about whether it needed to be. They hurt tens of thousands. I have friends who ended their lives by drink or their own hand over it all. Most confused and skeptical and some newer and more truer believers..ugh. I do find myself angry at that but that's my caretaker self.
The Tkaches got all the resources others provided to make it all possible. That bothers me. To this day no one seems to be able to come up with how much they got selling the stuff my parents, relatives and friends bought and paid for. They live well. The get to keep playing church at a level that only a Sunday school could be happy to run at. The write theological pablum and really have no right to exist anymore or continue to get some kind of support...but they do. They are the theologically challenged and yet they "win." That is the issue that bothers me and it bothers me that it does.
I don't care what those that contribute here believe or don't, and they don't care what I believe, for the most part. Those that might call someone a name or label them for being who they are now "make no difference to me, I learned nothing from them," as my dear friend the Apostle Paul might snark back Peter, James and John. It is not crucial to my day or how I feel about this journey from there to here.
But it's the "they got away with it" thing that bothers me. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they won't. I dn't know. I also suspect that if they didn't get away with it and something showed that to me in my lifetime, it would be unsatisfying anyhow and would not make me feel better about it all.
Maybe it's time to give up that final fear of them getting away with it all or not caring if they did as , from my present perspective, Karma or what goes around comes around still brings some kind of balance to the universe.
When I finally disappear, you'll know I have an answer to that question for me, or can at least accept that "winning" isn't everything.
Also, I know in my soul I would have outgrown the theology of the WCG no matter what church I had ended up in along the way. I think this was an experience I would have had with only the names of the organization, circumstances and faces changing.
(sorry, too long)
Dennis, don't apologise for being too long, what you posted is outstanding in getting a grip on all of this and a reality check as well.
Hang in there and keep plugging away.
rod 2
Anonymous said...
Who wants to wade through the same rants and raves that have little meaning except to the one posting?
My Comment: I see no difference now, than I saw before the moderation. We still have the same rants and raves, even if not digressing too far from the subject at hand. So, what is it that you want by having moderation? I guess I like confrontation. It helps sharpen my wits. Sadly, it tends to lead to name-calling, which I don't like. But, it seems it can't be helped on a forum such as this.
I find the news Gavin gives is enlightening to what is happening withion the various cog groups.
My Comment: I never said it wasn't. That's not the point.
Sometimes a posters elucidation helps in broadening a view point not thought of by others.
My Comment: And, it may have little meaning except to the one posting. So, we're back at square one. So...why the moderation? If you want moderation, go to Likeminds, or one of the other forums where they control what is ranted and raved about. That's MY free thought.
Steve K
So there was another Living Church of God furor over a cross? Guess it's time to brush off this little thing I wrote back in March 2005:
http://xcg.kingary.net/2005/03/16/
the-ball-and-the-cross
Steve Kissak may have forgotten it, but every email published on the old pre-blog AW was moderated - including his. I'm under no illusions that it was my opinions rather than the moderated "mailbag" that drew people (including Steve) to that site.
FWIW, so far only one posting has been rejected, and that was because it was a duplicate.
To Dennis,
I find myself agreeing with much of what you stated regarding "them"
getting away with "it".
Further, and I'm being brutally honest about this, the presence of Armstrongist loyalists, or believers here and on other boards, constitutes continuing prima facie evidence that "they" are continuing to get away with "it".
The entire exercise becomes like one looking at a sharp edge that has just cut one's finger. Repulsion mixed with curiosity. So typically human. Ever have someone announce that there is some horrendous odor present in another room? I guarantee you that everyone who hears such an announcement will immediately run to the next room to verify it for themselves, despite the advance knowledge that their olfactory sense is about to be assaulted!
The knowledge that the entire ACOG phenomenon had been dismantled, and was no longer actively harming innocent people, would constitute the ultimate in therapy for most of us. The Tkach's had a certain amount of power to do this, but lacked the expertise to carry it off. Instead, they simply brought in "the enemy" to supplant all of the bogus theology which was a part of old school Armstrongism.
We all know that there is a greater audience tuned in to these ACOG related sites. Yet only the bold will speak up! We present a humongous amount of information here and in other places. I am convinced that anyone who is unhappy in Armstrongism can read these materials, perhaps do a bit more research on their own, and use the information to help them escape the clutches of the cult. The problem lies in the fact that there are also some outspoken ones who have a vested interest in making sure that no-one escapes Armstrongism. These usually "anonymous" posters could be lay members, they could be deacons, they could even be members of the ministry, we simply cannot tell. Obviously, when we have discussions and arguments with such ones, we are not going to convince them. I'm convinced that it is often the shy and invisible ones whom we help, unknowingly!
I, too, frequently attempt to leave these blogs and forums, but, alas, like a US Marine, end up returning over and over and over, not wanting to leave any of the dead behind.
BB
Steve said "I guess I like confrontation."
Comment: But everyone doesn't thrive on confrontation. Some like respectful and meaningful discussions
"It helps sharpen my wits."
Comment: Perhaps it's not about your wits being sharpened.
Someone said: "I find the news Gavin gives is enlightening to what is happening withion the various cog groups.
My Comment: I never said it wasn't."
Comment: Ah but Steve, you said
" Ha! What "quality". The only "civilty" and "relevance" I see is a "kissing up" to Gavin. Well, Gavin, at least you don't have to post this "uncivilized", "irrelevant" post."
which is another childish insult that does not bespeak your respect for the work Gavin does behind the scenes. "Kissing up" is an irrelevant concept here and an insult to the rest of us. I'd say this is hardly a kiss up crowd. Not a comment that endears us to your point of view, whatever that may be at the time.
Take a breath Steve, join the rest of us with some meaningful input. You start insulting Gavin or see only kissing up, you'd be wrong and probably a pretty quick dismissal as having anything seriously interesting to say.
I've yet to end my day thinking on anything you have said that may be helpful in current time to reflect upon, but it could happen. Give it a try.
In your face probably doesn't work well with this group. We've had enough of it in the past. And while I hesitate to comment on this, risking more snarky comments that would make the point, I think we'd prefer not to be your punching bag. We're all just people here, sharing an experience that we hope to learn from and perhaps help others think through a bit more.
"The Nimrod thing brings back memories about "Europa on a bull" as pictured on the EU coins being the "Woman Riding the Beast" of revelation as per the various COG's. Of course anyone checking out that coinage would find it to be the "mother of Europe". But some of these people just cannot shake the coincidence as anything other than providence."
Get the book The Idea of Europe where the author said himself way before the church made anything of it, that the biblical symbolism and the symbols of Europe are not a coincidence.
Anon USA
The mark of the beast is Chi xi stigma, the tattoo [stigma] of Xx [Chi xi], from Strong's 5516
http://ulrikp.dk/strongsgreek/05516.html
In Indo-European language, one cannot have the number six without an "x" "ex" sound. Stigma does not make an x sound. The number 666 only begins to show up in Latin manuscripts in about the 10th century.
How better to deceive as the antichrist than to have "Christians" prove their loyalty by taking the mark of the cross, the recognized symbol of Christianity.
If Christ were killed with a Colt 45, would we emblazen it upon the walls of our churches and our persons?
LCG's and others were right to eschew the cross, and to continue to do so--for it will mark you for death.
Respectfully,
Anonymous
Dennis said...
The Tkaches got all the resources others provided to make it all possible. That bothers me. To this day no one seems to be able to come up with how much they got selling the stuff my parents, relatives and friends bought and paid for. They live well. They get to keep playing church at a level that only a Sunday school could be happy to run at. They write theological pablum and really have no right to exist anymore or continue to get some kind of support...but they do. They are the theologically challenged and yet they "win." That is the issue that bothers me and it bothers me that it does.
________________________
I am with the LCG and I contributed to the building fund way back when. Yet somehow I am merely bemused by the fact that the Tkaches and their allies were able to strike it rich by a massive sell-off of church property.
I'm not sure why this is exactly. Maybe because I was never there and so the property has a shadowy reality. Maybe I think building up all this property was never such a good idea, as if it would be a monument thru the ages. Maybe its just liberating to walk away from the property and start fresh.
At any rate, if I were to ever see a magazine article where Joe Tkach was sitting by the pool of his multi-million dollar mansion (if he had one then) living the high life and saying "I sold a bunch of church property and now I'm rich rich rich!", I would merely get a chuckle out of that.
Does anyone suppose that Living University will have an extensive section on why Christians should be conscientious objectors?
I come by occasionally because we are a community. Very diverse and quite dysfunctional.
It is hard to break away from a community; even if it is dysfunctional.
There are people you know, people you love, and people you don't like.
It is extremely hard to move into another community. In today's polarized world this is very hard to do.
I can't regularly go to a Catholic church. I could visit. I can't regularly go to an Evangelical church. I can visit there too. I had a friend who attended a synagogue for a number of years. I could do that now and again I guess.
I did really enjoy visiting an Anglican church in Melbourne. It was huge, lovely, and peaceful. But I didn't fit. It was lovely for a time.
There are so few places that old Church of God types fit. So few.
So I come by this place, just now-and-again. I can relate to much of what it said. I share the anger, the feelings of betrayal, and the hope for something better.
This is a good place to visit. But I don't fit here either...
Do you want to know why you don't fit in? I can tell you, but you won't believe it. No one does. But maybe it will make you think a little.
You were part of a church that was closer to what we saw in the Bible than any other church. But we saw that it was not what we believed it was. I was there too.
Christ said he saw Satan fall from heaven. So Satan is here on this earth, isn't he? God of this world, prince of the power of the air, and all that stuff we were taught. Read Rev.12. When Satan was cast out of heaven, he cast water out of his mouth to cover the earth to get the woman. The water is all the false churches, false teachings, etc. All the churches, all religions, are Satan's all preachers, ministers. Everything that pertains to religion is Satan's.
It is that simple to understand, if we can only see it.
"In Indo-European language, one cannot have the number six without an 'x' 'ex' sound."
Sorry, Anonymous, but you obviously don't know the slightest thing about Indo-European languages. The Finnish word for "six" is "kuusi." Also, the Greeks use the ancient letter "digamma" to represent the number 6, not a cross-sign or an X.
Your superstitious fear of, and disdain for, crosses and X's seems quite pagan.
"Stigma does not make an x sound."
Well, yes.
"The number 666 only begins to show up in Latin manuscripts in about the 10th century."
True, because it was around that time that Europeans began to adopt Arabic (actually Sanskrit) numerals.
"How better to deceive as the antichrist than to have 'Christians' prove their loyalty by taking the mark of the cross, the recognized symbol of Christianity."
But I thought Sunday-keeping was the Mark of the Beast. Now you're telling me it's the Sign of the Cross. Who do you think you are contradicting God's Endtime Apostle Herbert Armstrong!
Still, your suggestion that the Antichrist will have people adopt "the recognized symbol of Christianity" is an admission that the Cross is the recognized symbol of Christianity, not a pagan or occult symbol.
I wonder how you would explain the vision of Ezekiel in which God spares only those Israelites who are marked on their foreheads with a "mark" (Heb. "Tav" or Tau, representing the letter T) (Ezek. 9:1-6). Was Ezekiel a servant of Antichrist?
"If Christ were killed with a Colt 45, would we emblazen it upon the walls of our churches and our persons?"
Probably. Why wouldn't we?
"LCG's and others were right to eschew the cross, and to continue to do so--for it will mark you for death."
Yes, but Christ said only those who lose their lives will save it, and unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground, it will remain alone, but if it falls it will bring forth much fruit.
Eschewing the Cross, redux …
You say, but Christ said to take up my cross and follow Him … Mark 8:34, but this word could be rendered as stake or tether, as in tethering your dog in the yard. If he or you pull up the stake, he or you are now free to go elsewhere, and the elsewhere is to follow Christ--you no longer live your own life your way, but He lives in you, and you live for Christ--you have died to yourself.
In Gal 2:20 Paul says, "I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God …" you and Paul have crucified your old man [in baptism we are baptized unto the death of Christ] and you rise anew and live a new life, a different way of life, you follow Christ, not your own way any longer.
An instrument of death, i.e., the cross, should not be a symbol that is venerated.
Respectfully,
Anonymous
The cross, again …
http://nhkox.homestead.com/crucifix.html
Chi = Christ
xi = cross
stigma = tattoo, or the action of marking, piercing with two sharp sticks
How better to deceive, than to use a symbol that everyone equates with righteousness, the cross of Christ.
Constantine employed it, Catholics used it--why wouldn't they begin to use these letters as 666. They had built a landed empire in Europe with the cross as their symbol--how could they allow anyone to actually "read" what the letters on the page say, the cross of Christ as a tattoo is the mark of the beast.
God says not to make marks on yourself--if you don't believe me, believe God--do not ever take a tattoo, of the cross or anything else.
We are to use no image to say we are of God, except our obedience, counted to us as righteousness because we live by faith. The Sabbath was sign of Israel, the church is Spiritual Israel, it needs no symbol to mark it as true, other than its obedience.
Respectfully,
Anonymous
To Steve K:
It seems more important for you to diss everybody else and put everyone else down than to add any real substance to these discussions. As usual, it looks like you just stopped by - several times - to argue and try to pick a fight.
Perhaps if that's really what your purpose is - and that's fine if it is, but it doesn't belong here - then why don't you go start your own blog and/or forum and then you can call the shots and trash everyone in the universe and perhaps that will give you whatever it is that you feel "moderated" comments and a substantive, logical, well-thought out, related blog discussion does not.
The bottom line? If you don't like it, you have the freedom to leave and do one yourself and do it your way. One wonders why you haven't already.
"In Indo-European language, one cannot have the number six without an "x" "ex" sound. Stigma does not make an x sound. The number 666 only begins to show up in Latin manuscripts in about the 10th century."
Uh oh...take COG and swirl and elongate the "C" a bit=6. Take a rightside bite out of the "O" = 6 and snip the "-" from the "G", swirl and elongate, and you have 666. Ex-666 would mean we here have overcome the..oh never mind, the voices are calling again...:)
Neo said: "I remember a Number 8 Attack Speech at Spokesmans Club where the speaker identified the comic book hero Superman as Satan."
Oh the memories of it! I watched a number 8 attacking Hustler Magazine where the speaker hung the centerfold on the front of the lecturn, kept drawing our attention to it as the work of Satan and and "abomination in the nostrils of God."
Whew..what a beautiful example of God's creation. I drooled, obscessed, stared and then passed out. The speech was unconvincing :P
Oh PS! I was the pastor evaluating at the time...
PS..it was tough to evaluate as Pastor because I think the club was expecting me to agree with the speech..ha. Thanks Neo..I needed that!
I share the anger, the feelings of betrayal, and the hope for something better.
What could be better and give more hope than the Churches of God getting
together and agreeing on the Place of Safety?
jared olar said: Finnish six is "kuusi." Correct, but Finno-Ugaric is not an Indo-European language: it and Basque are two annomalies within the European landscape.
I did not say that stigma said "six."
Stigma was an irrational number between 5 and 6, it never meant six. Also Greek [pie] is also an irrational number between 3 and 4 with a letter assigned to it.
To answer your Ezekiel question: God said to mark the men--they had no choice. Taking the mark of the beast is a choice.
Respectfully,
Anonymous
How very Scriptural:
Philippians 4:5
Anon USA,
One thing i Know is that pictures of "Europa riding a Bull" go way back long before Herb was even born.What time line does that author you write about have for all of this?
rod 2
"Everything that pertains to religion is Satan's."
Oh well, then I guess we're all going to hell. Yippie. If even Jesus the Savior is of the Devil, then we truly are without hope. May as well live it, then, and get your kicks before it all ends in the fire.
"You say, but Christ said to take up my cross and follow Him … Mark 8:34, but this word could be rendered as stake or tether, as in tethering your dog in the yard."
So you'd rather we wear dog collars and leashes instead of crosses and crucifixes?
"If he or you pull up the stake, he or you are now free to go elsewhere, and the elsewhere is to follow Christ--you no longer live your own life your way, but He lives in you, and you live for Christ--you have died to yourself."
Died to yourself??? So the dog tether is an instrument of DEATH! We must have no respect for instruments of death, so those verses about taking up our dog leashes must be snipped out of the Bible!
Really, it's hilarious the ways people can twist and "translate" Scripture to keep the Bible from saying something they wish it didn't say.
"In Gal 2:20 Paul says, 'I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God …' you and Paul have crucified your old man [in baptism we are baptized unto the death of Christ] and you rise anew and live a new life, a different way of life, you follow Christ, not your own way any longer."
But that must be a mistranslation too. The correct translation is, "I have been tied to the dog tether with Christ, and I no longer roam the neighborhood marking trees and dropping my feces in yards. The life I now live is the life of a forlorn hound dog."
"An instrument of death, i.e., the cross, should not be a symbol that is venerated."
Why not? St. Paul said that he would glory in only one thing -- the Cross of Christ. Do you think you know better than St. Paul?
"Constantine employed it"
Employed what? The Cross, or the Chi Rho?
"Catholics used it--why wouldn't they begin to use these letters as 666."
I dunno, maybe because the Catholic Bible says 666 is the mark of the Beast and the number of his name, and that it is a sin to receive that mark?
"How could they allow anyone to actually 'read' what the letters on the page say,"
Why wouldn't they allow them to read the letters on the page? How can anyone learn the Christian message without reading those letters? (But of course you're talking about treating Holy Writ like an occult, gnostic tome, filled with hidden meanings that only folks like you can see.)
"the cross of Christ as a tattoo is the mark of the beast."
You keep talking about tattoos. Since when have Catholics ever had a rite of receiving cross tattoos on their flesh?
"God says not to make marks on yourself--if you don't believe me, believe God--do not ever take a tattoo, of the cross or anything else."
Duly noted. Tattoos bad. Cross even worse. Got it.
"We are to use no image to say we are of God"
Why not? There's nothing in the Bible or in ancient Christian tradition that forbids it, so why shouldn't we do it?
"The Sabbath was sign of Israel, the church is Spiritual Israel, it needs no symbol to mark it as true, other than its obedience."
We're not talking about what is necessary, we're talking about what is permitted.
"Finnish six is 'kuusi.' Correct, but Finno-Ugaric is not an Indo-European language: it and Basque are two annomalies within the European landscape."
Okay, I'll grant you that. My information is apparently out-of-date, since in the past it was believed that Finno-Ugric languages belonged to the Indo-European family.
But it's still not true that all Indo-European languages use an X or an "eks" sound in representing the number 6. In Spanish and Portuguese, the word for 6 is "seis." And as I said before, the Greek language does not use an X or an "eks" sound for the number 6. Again, in Gaelic the word for 6 is "seachd," which I can assure you has neither an X sign in it, nor does it have any sounds at all like the letter X.
Just admit you don't know what you're talking about, that you made up the bit about, "In Indo-European language, one cannot have the number six without an 'x' 'ex' sound." Even if Finno-Ugric is non-Indo-European, you're still dead wrong.
"I did not say that stigma said 'six.'"
I didn't say you did either.
"Stigma was an irrational number between 5 and 6, it never meant six. Also Greek [pie] is also an irrational number between 3 and 4 with a letter assigned to it."
That's nice, but what's it got to do with what we're talking about?
"To answer your Ezekiel question: God said to mark the men--they had no choice. Taking the mark of the beast is a choice."
Ah, so if the Israelites had willing chosen to be marked by God, then it would have been a sin, but because God marked them in spite of their free moral agency, that makes it okay for God to put a T sign on their foreheads. Okay, got it.
Actually they did have a choice. All they had to do was stop sighing and crying for the sins of their people, and God wouldn't have put a Tau on their foreheads, and then they too would have been slain. Pretty simple, really.
You just need to admit that your fear and loathing of crosses and the letter X, and the number 6, is just your own idiosyncratic opinion and has got nothing to do with what the Bible says or doesn't say.
Dear Mr. Olar,
I may remember incorrectly my linguistic rules, but you have supplied me with several numbers that seem to say that the number six has the sound(s) of si or se or x somewhere within the sound of the number in Indo-European numbers.
Gaelic = seachd
Greek = hex
Latin = sex
English & French = six
Spanish & Portuguese = seis
I say again that stigma is a symbol for an obsolete inrregular number between 5 and 6, and, therefore, cannot be 6 or sound like six, in Greek or English.
If you read Rev 13:18 in the original Greek, you will see that the number of[for] the man is Chi Xi Stigma [sorry, the Greek letters don't cmoe across].
Since stigma cannot be six, is should be a clue that "number" may stand for something else instead of numerals.
Mr. Olar, when you are numbered among the faithful, do you cease being known as Mr. Olar, and become Mr. 555? Or are you still Mr. Olar, but also known by the number, "one of many" faithful?
In Greene's Interlinear Greek New Testament, an * appears above the Chi Xi Stigma, and in the margin is added 3 Strong's numbers, 1812, 1835, and 1803. Since this is adding to Scripture, which we are strictly forbidden to do, especially to add to the book of Revelation 22:18, accepting or using the number 666 is adding to Scripture.
X = capital X stands for the name of Christ as in Xmas
X = stands for the recognized mark that one who does not know how to read or write employs to "sign" his name
xi = stands for cross
stigma = means mark or tattoo or piercing to show to whom one belongs
Chi xi stigma is an a(cros)tic for the name or mark or sign of Christ. The cross is a recognized symbol for Christ. The mark or sign of the cross is a recognized symbol for Christianity and the Church, not necessarily God's church.
I say again, if you as a monk transcribing the texts came to understand that the number/name of the beast is actually the mark/tattoo of the cross of Christ, a symbol you and your church employ to marry, bury, and dole out other sacraments, wouldn't you seek to obscure the meaning of this verse, especially before anyone, i.e., common man or others could read the text you are copying? Remember, few outside of monasteries could read in vernacular, let alone Latin, nor were many books around to be read. By the time that the Bible did become common place in Europe, and people/aristocracy could read it, the tradition [of men] had already been established that the mark of the beast was 666. Whoever the first monk/abbot/priest copier was added to the book to protect the legacy of his church and his/its livelihood.
Are you willing to perpetuate the traditions of men? Have you looked up this verse for yourself in the original?
Again, you are one of many; your place in line may be number six hundred and sixty-sixth, but does that make you a beast? Or are you still known as Mr. Olar, regardless of where you stand among many?
Christ died on a cross, it was the preferred method of the time to punish capital offenders in Rome/Roman provinces. It kills by slowly taking the breath away, so that one suffocates and dies. Christ said, "To you I commend my spirit." He died as he gasped His last breath. Breath is life--taking your breath is killing you.
I do not despise the cross. I recognize that it is an instrument of death, a death for which I am grateful, but neither do I venerate it. Nor will I wear it as jewelry nor decorate the walls of my home or church nor accept its tattoo.
If I as the antichrist [as in place of Christ, not necessarily against Christ] deceive you into becoming my slave [as shown by your acceptance of the tattoo of the cross], how better to deceive you than to have you accept the recognized mark of Christians today, when I know that this mark will become the mark of the beast?
Respectfully,
Anonymous
"I may remember incorrectly my linguistic rules, but you have supplied me with several numbers that seem to say that the number six has the sound(s) of si or se or x somewhere within the sound of the number in Indo-European numbers."
What possible significance could there be in the "si" or "se" sound? Does it remind you of the Serpent or something? Or is it that you think there's occult correlation between "six" and sex?
"Gaelic = seachd"
Hint: in Gaelic that letter "s" is pronounced "sh," and "ch" is silent. So, no "se" sound and no "ex" sound.
"Greek = hex"
No "se" sound, but there's the dreaded X.
"Latin = sex"
There you go.
"English & French = six"
French "six" is not pronounced "six." The X is silent.
"Spanish & Portuguese = seis"
"Se" sound, but no X.
"I say again that stigma is a symbol for an obsolete irregular number between 5 and 6, and, therefore, cannot be 6 or sound like six, in Greek or English."
I must again correct you. "Stigma" is a ligature of the Greek letters "sigma" and "tau," and in the Middle Ages began to be used as a symbol of the number 6 (NOT an irregular number between 5 and 6). There is no evidence for the symbol stigma in the first century A.D. when St. John lived.
Not that it even matters whether or not "stigma" can be pronounced the same as the number 6 in English. . . .
"If you read Rev 13:18 in the original Greek, you will see that the number of[for] the man is Chi Xi Stigma [sorry, the Greek letters don't come across]. Since stigma cannot be six"
Except for the fact that stigma IS six.
"it should be a clue that 'number' may stand for something else instead of numerals."
Even if stigma cannot be six, it does not logically follow that "number" stands for something besides "numerals."
"Mr. Olar, when you are numbered among the faithful, do you cease being known as Mr. Olar, and become Mr. 555?"
No, when I am numbered among the faithful, I am known as Polycarp.
"Or are you still Mr. Olar, but also known by the number, 'one of many' faithful?"
I'm still Mr. Olar, and you are still Anonymous.
"In Greene's Interlinear Greek New Testament, an * appears above the Chi Xi Stigma, and in the margin is added 3 Strong's numbers, 1812, 1835, and 1803. Since this is adding to Scripture, which we are strictly forbidden to do, especially to add to the book of Revelation 22:18, accepting or using the number 666 is adding to Scripture."
Sorry, that's about the most asinine thing I've heard in quite some time. Translating the Bible is a violation of Rev. 22:18, eh? So we should only be reading Revelation in the original Koine Greek? And I thought it was us Catholics who wanted to keep the Bible locked up in a language nobody can understand . . . .
It's getting hard to avoid the sense that I'm not dealing with someone who lives most of his time in the same universe as the rest of us . . . .
"X = capital X stands for the name of Christ as in Xmas"
Yes, the Greek letter Chi is the first letter of Christos.
"X = stands for the recognized mark that one who does not know how to read or write employs to 'sign' his name"
X also marks the spot. That's where the pirates buried their gold dubloons.
"stigma = means mark or tattoo or piercing to show to whom one belongs"
It also refers to just about any kind of injury or flesh wound.
"Chi xi stigma is an a(cros)tic for the name or mark or sign of Christ."
Aha, so you're saying that Jesus Christ is the Antichrist! The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of false prophecy, just as Revelation says!
"The cross is a recognized symbol for Christ."
Yes, because it is on the Cross that He won us redemption by His blood. That's why Christians revere the Cross, which to you has become a sign of contradiction.
"The mark or sign of the cross is a recognized symbol for Christianity and the Church, not necessarily God's church."
I would have to agree that there's no doubt your "Church of God" is not the Church of the New Testament or the historical Church.
"I say again, if you as a monk transcribing the texts came to understand that the number/name of the beast is actually the mark/tattoo of the cross of Christ, a symbol you and your church employ to marry, bury, and dole out other sacraments, wouldn't you seek to obscure the meaning of this verse, especially before anyone, i.e., common man or others could read the text you are copying?"
That's a pretty big if. There's not a shred of evidence that any monk ever came to view Rev. 13:18 in the same oddball way that you do. We do know, however, that in the Eastern Church the Greek letters for "666" are interpreted symbolically in this fashion: Chi = Christ, Stigma = Man, and the Digamma between Christ and Man is interpreted as the Serpent who came between them and separated them, leading Man to sin and death. But then Greek-speaking Christians couldn't be expected to understand the Greek language as well as an English-speaking fundamentalist such as yourself, could they? That must be why they don't realise that "666" is actually a tatto of a Christian cross.
"Remember, few outside of monasteries could read in vernacular, let alone Latin, nor were many books around to be read."
Depends on which period of time you're talking about, and which part of Europe. In some times and places literacy was quite impaired, but in the High Middle Ages books and literacy were pretty widespread in most places.
"By the time that the Bible did become common place in Europe, and people/aristocracy could read it, the tradition [of men] had already been established that the mark of the beast was 666."
Yes, a "tradition of men" that first appears in the writings of the Greek-speaking St. Irenaeus of Lyons, in the latter decades of the second century A.D. St. Irenaeus said the number is 666, and he was even aware of the variant textual reading of 616. That was LOOOOONG before your hypothetical medieval monk supposedly altered the biblical text to make people think the number of the Beast's name is 666.
"Whoever the first monk/abbot/priest copier was added to the book to protect the legacy of his church and his/its livelihood."
Well, it must have been St. Irenaesus of Lyons. He's the first guy to say the number is 666, so maybe he's the guy who changed the text. He was a Catholic bishop, after all, just in case there was any doubt remaining about how nefarious and devious St. Irenaeus must have been.
"Are you willing to perpetuate the traditions of men?"
No. That's why I think your private interpretation of Rev. 13:18 is a bucket of hyena offal that I'm just not going to stick my head in.
"Have you looked up this verse for yourself in the original?"
Yes.
"Again, you are one of many; your place in line may be number six hundred and sixty-sixth, but does that make you a beast?"
No, but then my name isn't Nero either.
"Or are you still known as Mr. Olar, regardless of where you stand among many?"
Here I stand, I can do nothing else.
"I do not despise the cross. I recognize that it is an instrument of death, a death for which I am grateful, but neither do I venerate it. Nor will I wear it as jewelry nor decorate the walls of my home or church nor accept its tattoo."
Well, you're welcome to your personal preference, but of course most Christians look on that symbol with honor, because it represents the means by which Jesus effected the reconciliation of God and Man. Just don't go around telling Christians that they're doing something evil by expressing their gratitude for Christ's sacrifice by using the visual arts, because it's poppycock.
So you write>It is that simple to understand<
Perhaps for those with a simple mind, however for those who have suffered and struggled through the mental and financial confusion caused be the herbster and his minions, it is a different story! Go back to your wall where herbies picture is mounted and pray. Perhaps the herbster will tell you how to respond!
Who is the good looking girl pictured on the Living University homepage? Is she a real LU student, or a fraud "stock photo"?
Does she look good, but taste bad -just like LU?
You are the simple one. You did not read my comment. I said all churches. All includes Herbs church. All includes his minions too. I was there and I did suffer.
"You are the simple one. You did not read my comment."
Yes, I did, and I took it very literally.
"I said all churches. All includes Herbs church. All includes his minions too."
Yes, that's how I interpreted your words.
"I was there and I did suffer."
As did we all, though some of us (such as myself) got through it a lot easier than others. I didn't have some of the horrendous experiences than others did.
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