Email To The Editor, Page 85

To: editor@hwarmstrong.com
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: The Painful Truth

Mr. I'm Afraid,
I am not sure if you are still feeling the way you were a number of years ago. You may no longer need advice on the issue. Nevertheless, I will share briefly.

To begin with my heart goes out to you having to face your situation. I read one of the letters that talked about you starting from scratch, I will agree. There are a number of people who lead others astray with their skewed "doctrine".

My husband and I have 4 friends who dealt with the same struggles you faced. It was difficult because those in the World Wide church of God were using truth to diminish who some say God is. These friends have left the church and have started fresh. They still have struggles, but found the book The Case for Christ and a number of books by C.S. Lewis helpful to the road to freedom.

I don't think it was a coincidence that you had the feeling you should no longer be apart of this. I hope within the past few years you have found Truth, anything that points to us having to do religious activities, living perfect lives or "worshipping" so many times to whoever and wherever is often a sure sign that it is motivated by man and not God. Any religion that makes you feel guilty is often self serving.

As for what to teach your children find studies that point to Christ without a long checklist. Research authors who are reputable. I have found Kay Arthur to be a good source and I like the fact she does not teach her opinion or make it doctrine. Focus on the Family has a number of good resources as well.

Lastly, I would say stay alert. Many would advise you to come into a certain religion, even though there is only one road that leads to salvation and that is Jesus Christ, only Jesus, not Jesus and someone and something else just Jesus Christ the Son of God. May you find freedom in truth.

Bridgette

----- Original Message -----
From: Editor at the PT
To: Bridgette H___
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: The Painful Truth

Bridgette,
I appreciate the assistance.

Your overpowering tone of authority is hard to disobey, but I must, I'm afraid....

I'm an atheist. I am one because I simply do not "know" of the existence of any gods. Especially this mystical "Jesus" you speak of.
And I also have not written to you with orders to read this or that, or 'explained' "God" to you, or dictated to you what your children should be taught.
You mention this Kay Arthur, and that you like her because, "...she does not teach her opinion or make it doctrine. "

Maybe you should think about following her lead, eh?

Your pompous attitude is not particularly surprising nor interesting.

Regards, nonetheless

Editor

----- Original Message -----
From: Bridgette H___
To: Editor at the PT
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: The Painful Truth

Editor,

I apologize if my tone is offensive and "overpowering" and my attitude "pompous". I don't want to appear that way.

Since you are an atheist I thought you would find some of the books interesting,especially The Case for Christ, given that it was written by someone who was an atheist.

I also apologize, for I think I misunderstood what you were asking about in your editorial.

Take care-
Bridgette

What exactly is your problem? Um, currently I'm working on my serve again. That damn net is still in the way.

You are the "cook." Oooookay.... If your logic is so
profound, how can you not acknowledge the existance of God? How can you
actually think that all of the complexity of the universe came from "nothing"?

Easy. I don't "acknowledge" the "existance" of the Tooth Fairy either, no matter how many times I hear that the sucker exists. I don't just "acknowledge" the "existance" of wormholes, extra-terrestrial life, or if that guy coming down the road is really gonna turn left, just because his blinker is on either. Could be. Might be. Probably SHOULD be. Maybe there IS a gawd, and maybe there ARE wormholes in space, and maybe I WILL run into the Tooth Fairy one day. How the heck do I "know"??? How the heck do YOU "know"???? KNOW???

Just because you fell down and cut your knee is no reason to cut your leg
off!!! Be careful not to fall off of the ediface that you have built for
yourself! I grew up in the church. I was about 15 when the split happened. I
was too young to understand...now I understand why Armstrong was wrong...I
don't hate him! Do you hold yourself up to some kind of moral standard? Of course. Why would YOU think I don't? YOur site is very offensive... Then don't come back...See how easy that is? yet you proclaim it all in the name of truth and trying to release the cultmasters!!! Release??? I think you meant to say something else... I think that it is one thing to disagree with the "Armstrongism" of the original WCG...however the surviving WCG has totally changed their doctrine, not a cultish one. ALL religions are cults. The faster you see this the better. In essence, the WCG has started over. No it hasn't. Not at all. It's an Enron-Like corporation whose executives are trying to rewrite their own history, to bury it, and carry on, and we here won't buy into that hogwash. Personally, I belive that there is no 100% pure, true doctrine in any church, or ever will be! Why the hell NOT???? Isn't Gawd's Word in that Black Book the Truth? Isn't Gawd telling Christians the truth in it? Are you admitting to me and all that the Black Book is fallible, and none of you has the single slightest clue on what the Truth really is, since you all (Christians) have split into so many little shards of broken glass that none of you can see an accurate reflection???? I believe that all of the many denominations, parts of the Body of Christ, have pieces of this truth...however it will not be revealed until the end days! It's always "doctrine" with you fundies, and it's funny that you folks will happily overlook what you don't happen to agree with, in order to remain part of a cult. Fascinating... The "end days".... when you don't have an answer, you put it off 'till the Rapture or some such End Day scenario. You folks are funny. Stay on your side of the fence.

I sincerely hope that you become aware Christ's love for you. I'm sure that you were hurt by Armstrongism, many people were and stil are. You are damn right they still are!!!!! There are people RIGHT NOW "Giving to the Lord" at the expense of FOOD, medicine, and education, for their CHILDREN, you jerk!!!! No hyperbole!!! These people are being hurt, RIGHT NOW, and under the spell of this and other cults, and you want me to pat Tkach or MerryDeath, or the Other Hundred Spitoffs on the back and say, "Good on you guys for "conforming to 'modern Sunday School Style Christianity' "????? Screw THAT noise!!!!

That being said, there ARE some folks who are Christian, and actually happen to be decent and good folks. I have no beef at all with them. I disagree with some of their basic premises, but oh well... Point is, they're not willing to be governed by some gangster in a faraway Kingdom, on some self-appointed throne. Good on them, I say! Party on !

Please don't keep salting this wound!

Ah but, we have not yet begun to salt, sir.....

--"No man hath affliction enough that he is not matured and ripened by it, and
made fit for God by that affliction." -- John Donne

You must have read a lot of the bible to know all those things you know but if you haven't noticed everything you said on your website is backed up by the bible. It seems you have another reason not many people know about for trying to exploit the bible the way you do. You need faith n that's something you don't have...i'm praying for you.

God's Faithful Creation

Priests exploit the bible, and their flocks of followers, not me nor this website. Demanding at least a tenth of your yearly income as a sacrifice to gawd or else burn forever in some hell is pretty...uh.... exploitive, I'd say.

Subject: EDITOR - Response to Letter to the Editor from Bridgette and Mike C____

In acknowledgment and comment of the afore mentioned letter:

I just had to play devil's advocate on this one, couldn't resist.

As far as God is concerned, I believe that will be a debate until we all
finally die and the mystery is solved once and for all. If there isn't one,
you really won't know or care being that you're dead, dead, dead. If there
is one, then the mystery continues...with hopes of some sort of resolution.

While in the the human existence area though, things are a bit more
complicated. All religions seem to have some sort of process in which
re-birth occurs. This concept ranges from the typical Christian heaven to
the Hindu recycling program. However, all of these beliefs have a common
theme of death is not the end. None of this can answer the question of "is
there life after death or not," as obviously we're all still alive and as
far as I know, none of us have been there and back...okay, except for some
late night talk shows on which I will refrain from comment.

If there is life after death, where are you going to put that many people?
What about ex-husbands, ex-wives, ex-lovers? I see a soap opera in the
making. I really don't think it's that simple of an answer. (Tune in to
Heaven Reality TV - ex-wives from Gamma Galaxy vs. ex-husbands from Orions
Belt.)

Again, I'm not saying there is a God, but I'm not saying there is not. If
anyone can prove definitively to me that there is one, I'll believe you. I
do not believe the Bible in the 'definitive' sense. If you are a biblical
scholar in the least bit, you would know that also. Even if the Bible was
written by the hand of God, after 20,000 or so re-writings and translations,
it would not even resemble the original text. Example: Children's game -
20 people stand in a row. One sentence is given to the first person in
line, it is passed down verbally one by one to the 20th person. The
sentence is never the same and is amazing if it is even remotely close to
the original sentence.

As far as voicing your opinion goes, everyone is entitled to their own
opinion. Gerald Waterhouse, a keynote speaker for WWCG, used to have a pet
subject of "free-moral agency." In other words, God made people to think on
their own and make their own decisions and opinions. Even WWCG didn't
disagree on this. You are entitled to your own opinion, if God didn't like
it he just smacked you into a lamp-post or the nearest large rock. However,
you are still entitled to that opinion, concussions notwithstanding.

I believe WWCG still stands with the opinion that proselyting is NOT part of
their beliefs. If you would like to continue proselyting, I believe that
the Jehovah Witness's have a very nice package put together, requires some
walking though. As do the Mormons, but you have to be male and own a
bicycle. (Some of those Mormons are really cute, yer darn tootin'.)

I would like to mention that I am not affiliated with/nor advocating any
religion or any belief. (Disclaimer, have to do them these days, you know.)

Back again to those pesky biblical issues. I believe idolatry is mentioned
in the 10 commandments. If there is to be a supreme worship of a God, then
there must not be anything 'between' you and God. Idolatry does not only
comes in the form of little graven objects, but also in the form of Elvis
Presley - who might be God, but we may never know. I believe the 'between'
also contains Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, GTA,
HWA and anything that does not qualify as a heavenly being. Of course, most
of the above mentioned have been between something or the other. In plain
and simple language, do not worship people you human fools.

In essence, doctrines change and are always changing based on the monetary
income of the founding church. New beliefs are found when the income is
decreasing and the peasants are unhappy. If any church decides to revise
their doctrinization, shouldn't you perhaps look at their financial
statements first and question what these changes were based on? How did the
new understanding only become revealed now? Did God choose to keep this a
secret until the balance sheet started showing little red notations? Do you
honestly think that churches are driven only by the word of God and not
finances? Remember, you can't spread the word of God if you're invisible.

As for the end of days, that's been coming since Nostradomus. Funny, but the
world seems to be a bit like the Energizer Bunny. And who says that if we
blow ourselves to a gazillion pieces that we will have the answer to
anything? Epiphany upon mass genocidal destruction. If I have to
disintegrate to obtain knowledge, I'd have TNT'd myself years before
college, high school would have been less painful. I'm sorry, I just don't
find your responses in any way, logical. They are based on FAITH. Faith is
trust. Who do you trust? Remember, the Bible says trust no man.

I am a firm believer, that if there is a loving, caring Christ,
God,....whatever entity, that they would not let their creation suffer like
this. Would you sit there and watch your children be tortured and turn your
back? I sure wouldn't. Also, remember, you were made in the form of God,
so God can care less what happens to his children....ooops, one more
beheading, lost another one. If that was my child, I'd be ramming a
scimitar down the throat of a certain terrorist. You tell me how kind God
is. Then you tell me how you believe. Then you tell me how you are a
better person than everyone else and can tell people that it is okay and
that your religion will save you in the end.

John Donne quote nicely done, but perhaps you need to read the Lamb and the
Tiger. "Tiger, Tiger burning bright, in the fire of the night...." I don't
think you quite captured the essence of the meaning. Donne was satirizing
good and evil, it wasn't meant literally.

For my conclusion, I'll paraphrase another biblical quote. Let he who hath
no sins cast the first stone. It doesn't say that you can't cast any
stones, just who goes first. Perhaps you should ponder on that.

Goddess

Being told to wait for ANYTHING until the end days is also a load of shit. E.g.: I have here in my possession a map to some secret buried treasure. I'll sell it to you for $10,000. Unfortunately, it's all in secret code. But no worries! God will reveal it to you in the end times. Meanwhile, you can get it cheap for only 10 grand.

God will reveal who really killed JFK in the end days.

In the world tomorrow we will know ALL truth.

Every thing will be hunky dory and peachy keen mañana. Trust me on this.

You can become as god knowing all things, made out of pure energy (spirit ?), able to be everywhere at once, and all-fucking powerful. In the end times. Meanwhile, give me all your money, power, trust, and sex and I'll make sure you cash in on the end times bonanza.

HUH? What the fuck? Talk about a scam. Fuck the end times. That's a ready-made lame-ass excuse for bamboozling absolutely anything and everything out of poor dump sheep moron gullible suckers.

Bill F

In a recent letter to the editor, we find this bit of mega-ignorance....

"I believe that all of the many denominations, parts of the Body of Christ, have pieces of this truth...however it will not be revealed until the end days! "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hummmm...... Lets analyze and think about the paradox this little "doctrine" creates.

1) You can never have more than "pieces" of the truth and never more than "partial" truth. God deliberately, purposefully keeps the entire world ignorant and god guarantees that no one, anywhere, anytime, or anyplace knows his truth -- god guarantees ignorance.

2) You are always in the wrong church because you very quickly learn the particular "piece" of truth that particular church has and there is nothing more the church can offer. You must continually move on and gather as many pieces of truth as you can.

3) The highest level of truth would always belong to the vagabonds who can hitch the most trains and who live the most unstable lives imaginable. Unemployed bums would be the most able to travel the world picking up "pieces" of the truth. Therefore, in this convoluted "doctrine", the most righteous people are the most unstable, the unemployed, the drifters, the quitters, the ones most devoid of life, the family deserters, the nonproductive who contribute nothing.... the bums, the lazy and the irresponsible. And conversely, the more stable, educated, family oriented you are, the more ignorant of spiritual truth you are.

In other words, the fewer values you have and the more unstable you are, and the fewer morals you have -- the more "truth" you can obtain. But the more values, stability, morals, and family orientation you have -- the more ignorant you are and always will be. Generation after generation after generation.

4) You must continually travel the world despite weather, jobs, living conditions, safety, family values, school for the children (never mind, children would just slow you down and cost you many, many "pieces" of the truth. The quest for truth would literally be much better if you deserted your family and children.)

5) Since each church teaches many, many things but only has a "piece" of the truth... How in the hell can you know what that piece of the truth is? How in the hell can you know the error the church teaches????

6) God has distributed his unobtainable truth in such an insane manner that it is totally, completely, and forever impossible to know truth from error.

What a sick, demented, insane "god" this ignorant individual speaks of.

Religion is the greatest (and sickest) hoax ever perpetrated in history.

JimV
----------------------

[Editor: the following is a reply to an email from myself to Bill F. where he had been a little "less than objective" in some comments about our current President, and I was surprised. I think this reply highly instructive...]

The only reason I rant against Bush now is because he is the one in office. If Gore were in office I would be ranting just as hard against him. I am against the office, and not necessarily any individual who might be holding the office. See Lew Rockwell's piece "Down With the Presidency" for details: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/down-presidency.html A quick summary of the problem is that our modern American presidency has WAY too much power. No matter who is inserted into the Oval Office, either he must already have been totally corrupted to get that high up or else he will become totally corrupted almost immediately by the innate human lust for power once he is installed into the office, the tremendous amount of power at his disposal, and the thousands of sycophants who keep sucking up to him and saying "Yes, Mr. President."

The reason I can't stand Rush Limbaugh is because he is not really a political commentator but rather an entertainer. He whips his followers up into an emotional frenzy with his mindless, non-critical thinking rants against the Democrats. There are plenty of Democrat/liberal entertainers who do the same against Republican/conservative leaders. Rush is manipulating millions of people who feel passionately about politics. He may not be merely an entertainer, however. That is my best guess. But if he is sincere in his convictions, then he is just another popular icon who has given himself over to CultThink. He is able to attract a large following of fellow CultThinkers who synchronize with his particular Cult Belief System. The Hannity/Colmes nightly scream-fest on Fox News is a good example of the best that is available on TV now - fair and balanced. The two CultThinkers almost always have guests who are highly polarized, and almost all shows rapidly turn into screaming sessions. But it's fair and balanced. Both sides of the issue are screaming equally loudly. CultThink at its best. Maybe tonight they'll have video coverage of a large outdoor assembly who are screaming "Great is Diana of the Ephesians!" non-stop for two hours.

I am not against any particular political party. I am against ALL POLITICS, and thus have little to say positive about any politician. I am even more aggressively against all CultThinking, which now includes religions, politics, advertising, patriotism, consumerism, entertainment, etc. etc. I am in favor of rational, critical thinking. I threw patriotism into that laundry list because most people today in the USA who claim to be patriotic have simply bought into the prevailing CultThink, which means whichever gang of thugs happens to be controlling the White House.

I appreciate your criticism very much, because the average reader does not know all this when he reads my rants.

I let myself go off in major rants along political lines when I am emailing Jim and other cyberbuds because at the time I am not thinking that my comments are going to be posted on the PT website. I am not saying they shouldn't be. Maybe I just need to keep my anti-politics rage farther away from my keyboard.

I think I'll imbibe a Bourbonic libation this evening in praise of rational thought and chaos. And then I'll drink to the death of all politicians, mountebanks, priests, kings, popes, pastors general, presidents, coercers, manipulators, predators, psychopaths, charlatans, swindlers, hoaxsters, ministers, reverends, evangelists, used car salesmen, lawyers, tax collectors, and con men in general. If not to their death, then at least to their reformation.

Yeah, that CultThink is scary stuff. Pure emotion, no thought, no logic. Fanatics.

Let's see... Islamic Muslims on 911, Benny Hinn, circumcision, (why the heck we started whacking off the end of our wing-dang-doos is beyond me), "Fahrenheit 9/11", Sean Hannity and clones, PNAC, Pat Robertson (""I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/8/92)...

I often think that we should just hand all the fanatics in the world all the weapons they want...and then go duck for cover. Come back out after they've cleaned up the gene pool....

OK HWA & GTA are dead, Jon Hill., Dean Blackwell.... Catherwood? was one of the baptizing team which baptized my husband in 1960 - I think he's with Meredith.. A couple of the other splinter groups don't give the names of their leaders.

From what I've read, Herman Hoeh is retired, but stayed with WCG - I'm 73 now - left Pasadena in l967- half my life ago. At least I'm alive and healthy (I credit the medical profession), I'm forgetting names. Smith, I think (Esther Glover's brother) was still with WCG??? Bill Glover, like me, was crazy enough to try to be honest - he was the one person who genuinely tried to help me.

Carozzo - I think he had his own group. I was really good friends with the wife of the man who was in charge of student custodians. He used to tell his wife when and how to clean and frequently paddled her. One time she thought if she didn't fight him she'd get fewer swats. It didn't work - she got more... Then there was one of the early employees in data processing. His wife was a good friend. And the wife of a man in charge (I think) of grounds. I forgot all those names.

Richard Plache - he was out then back in, right? I got tapes from him years ago. The man who, under Jon Hill, was supervisor of Ambassador Press - wife had beautiful long hair. She assisted at the birth of my youngest child. I guess that's the best thing I carried away - children who were born alive and breathing rather than zonked by drugs. Oh, there was another man - tall with a large wife - he worked in letter-answering and his wife had either been kicked out or left on her own accord. I had migraines and one day I snuck into a drug store and bought aspirin. I can remember seeing this man's nose pressed up against the store window watching what I was doing.... Six years sitting down front on Friday nights and Saturday afternoons - starting in the Shakespeare Club... I could write my own book....

I guess that's what I'd really like to know - how they all separated and where they went. My husband was employed by Ambassador College and then Ambassador Press from 1961-1967. I was a true believer until one day the scales fell off my eyes and we couldn't get out fast enough.

As the signs say, "The Episcopal Church Welcomes You." It doesn't ask about your personal life. You're not looked down upon if you admit you don't really believe everything. The church of our founding fathers.... I love it. The beauty of the liturgy.

Horror stories. Mine weren't so bad - excommunicated - told I had a demon.- somehow I expressed frustration which was evidence I'd never repented. My oldest daughter (in Imperial School with Matthew Armstrong) is the one with the horror stories. The red-haired second-grade teacher and her husband who taught 3rd & 4th grades - absolute sadists. When my daughter was in fourth grade they spent the whole year constructing model cities. Somehow hers had no bathroom... unimportant, I suppose. The last day of school, clean-up day, it was discovered that a year's worth of crafts had been done on unprotected desk tops leaving razor cuts, etc. So they all lined up for paddling. I wonder what happened to Matthew - he was deaf and I think one of the other brothers was too. Someone suggested that was a result of STD. That sounds plausible.

As I said, what I'm mostly curious about is what happened to the people I knew back in the sixties. Jebens, Hanaways, Doaks, Caradonnas - . I've got a two yearbooks packed away somewhere. One Ambassador College and one Imperial Schools. But I sure could write a book. Funny things - one friend heard a sermon on sex, understood the minister to condemn a technique that worked for her husband and her. She went and asked the minister and if it was wrong. He said it was OK. She was so relieved.

In 1980 my oldest daughter graduated from the local university. She and her brother took a bus tour of the country. They tried to contact past babysitters in Pasadena and found everyone too scared to talk.

I guess I don't need anonymity. If you take the name out of my EMail address and couple it with Ambassador Report, Google will give my last name. I read most of them and responded a couple times. Who cares? Maybe my children. My youngest daughter (now head of the local high-school guidance department) used to manage a bar. One day a man came in; they started chatting. Was she born in Florida? No. Where? California, Where in California? Pasadena.... It turned out to be a Meredith son. She mentioned the horror stories (she was two when we left) and he seemed surprised, unaware of any problems.... The girl was in my older daughter's class and she definitely got preferential treatment.

I'm glad to be alive and healthy. Glad we had the courage to get out when we did. Glad my husband stopped tithing and put his money in the bank so we were able to get out. Glad my mother was so glad that she cheerfully made room for all six of us in her 2 bedroom house. Glad my husband ended up working for the local university. Glad that I am still able to trust God - especially now that I know that Jesus Christ came, not only to die, but to reveal the true nature of a loving God. I believe you are doing your best to help people and I'm sure God is pleased even if you have doubts. We aren't saved by keeping the law, but our behavior certainly demonstrates who and what we are, even if we're none of us perfect. That's what finally broke the spell for me. Seeing how hateful both GTA and HWA could be. Those out in the hinterland might not have known but those of us at headquarters knew, even if we were in denial. As the old song goes, "was blind and now I see."

Thanks for the mail, B____. From the sound of it, maybe you SHOULD write that book. Maybe your story and experience would "make the scales fall from the eyes" of other potential victims of these folks.

I don't know where all the folks ended up...some started more splitoffs, some left and began real lives, some died. There are folks in the forum and Readers on the site who can answer better than me, and even some you may remember:)

PS - Thanks for the very civil email also. You're making christians look very good:)

To whom it may concern:

A couple of months ago, I met a local homeschooling mother in my
area. Last month, she and her husband showed up in my driveway on a
Sunday, our day of worship and my day of work-I am a nurse and I work
the weekend shift. Her husband gave my husband these two magazines
and told us what good information it contained. This was totally
unsolicited. She told us that the writer/editor/publisher, Gerald
Flurry, is a direct descendent of David. I nearly laughed in her
face. How can people be so naive? I asked her if she had searched
this man's family tree herself. And I told her that we were one up
on that one as we are all direct descendents of Adam, or according to
evolutionists we are all descendents of the ape.

This woman is pitiful. Her fellowship with the PCG is isolating her
from all of society. Her husband will not allow her to have health
insurance because it is "of the government" and there is some evil
plot by our government. Her husband won't allow her little boy to
join Boy Scouts. He said that all of the Boy Scout leaders were
homosexuals. I told him that was big, fat lie, and asked him where
he got his information.

How conceited that they think there little cult is the only group
with access to the "truth", whatever that may be. She even told me
that only "certain" people could be invited to her church and she
couldn't even invite me. I told her not to hold her breath because I
would not even consider being a part of a group who doesn't allow its
members to be independent thinkers.

Then she began complaining that our homeschool group was not
"inclusive" because we had functions for the kids on Fridays, and of
course, she doesn't believe in doing anything on a Friday. They don't
celebrate Christmas, Easter, or Halloween. I told her that it is
apparent that her religion was what was excluding her from life. I
did tell her that not carrying insurance on her family was an act of
suicide. She also told me that they have had to cut up 4 credit
cards and her kids haven't seen a dentist in five years because all
of their income is tied up in that group of PCG they attend in
Durham, NC. Please spread the word that there is a faction of this
cult in the Durham, NC, area.

Thanks! Those people you mention need help and understanding. They're in the grip of a cult.

8/20/04

Hey, if your "pastor" tells you it's god's will, you've got to believe him and then do whatever he says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3941453.stm

Dear Editor --

When I was a member ----

We all know that for 1900 years, the 'counterfeit gospel' was the gospel 'about Christ' not the gospel 'of Christ.' All the churches tell us 'about Christ' - except ours! You won't learn much 'about Christ' here, but you sure will learn a lot 'about HWA!'

In 'a few short years' ---

I know that any book in the NT that doesn't end in 'Amen' is incomplete. That the Book of Acts will one day be a very long book, when it includes everything up to and beyond the life and works of HWA. Also, it's likely that 'more books will be added' which will include writings of HWA.

It may have been covered already - this website is really loaded with reading material - but, any thoughts? I know there have been a few 'Bible sounding' histories of HWA, any thoughts on which of his works would be included in the 'New NT'? 'The Two Trees' is sure to be somewhere. And letters? 'The 4th Epistle of HWA to those who aren't giving enough.' "Now turn the 3rd chapter of 'The letter about Loma's Bowel Blockage.' Beginning at verse 1.."

While I take pride in my work, others may not--
So, anon.

Since it is anon, who will know if it is plagiarized? Who cares?

The PT site is helpful as are many others to help us process our experiences and hopefully not get stuck in them. By the way, just by way of principle, any chance of removing me from the "Hall of Shame". I read the list of things I had to repent of doing to the church and in the name of the church and there are precious few of them I did. If you knew me as a WCG pastor, you'd know I was way ahead of my time and marginalized because of it until they could not take me anymore..ha. I don't have a list of regrets in how I told people to apply the impractical things of WCG to their real lives.:)

At any rate, it's the principle of not feeling I have anything to be ashamed of and being known as who I really was and how I really treated people in my care, rather than a part of a maligned group.

Have a great weekend and I always enjoy chatting.

Den

Ya know what? I have to say that you and your son Jeff have been nothing but friendly to me. That goes a long way. And I don't think it's fake either; I feel you guys are genuinely decent folks, and I hope to continue to have a valuable dialogue with you both. And I still need to check out his restaurant:)

And... Yes, I have it from external correspondence that you were, indeed, quite the Good Man, even as a WCG pastor. Many times I've been told how you helped someone, even if it was..uh..against the grain of the cult, so to speak.

I wouldn't want to be listed in that group either. But I'm not here to rewrite history.

Somewhere in your travels, during your time in service, you hurt people. Maybe not directly, but as an 'enabler' of the cult. Somewhere there was a poor family who didn't take their kids to a doctor when they should have, or a quiet soul who sat in the back of the hall and was gay, but in fear for his soul, and went and killed himself. Or there was a pedophile in your midst which noone "took care of". You enabled the damage to be done by being part of the process, Dennis. As good a guy as you were (are) you were part of the machine, just as an SS soldier was part of Nazi Germany.

I have it from their mouth that you did indeed help your people. My hat's off to you for that.

I'd also invite you to sign our Apology Page, with whatever letter you'd care to provide. I'm not looking for blood nor drama here; just an honest repentance for damage done to innocent folks.

Ed, Why have only two ex-ministers signed <>the list to apologize<> <>(I assume they are ex-ministers)

Ten years ago, while I was still in the clutches of the WCG, I had an argument
on a mailing list (dedicated to classical music, of all things) with someone
who could only be described (as much as I knew over the net, of course) as a
flaming homosexual. I took the position, at the time, that god frowned on
homosexuality because man and women were made in a way to fit together. He,
to say the least, vehemently disagreed.

Eventually I came around to a certain amount of tolerance for lifestyles
different than mine, and am willing to admit that I was wrong. I was wrong
to judge him for the choices that he made with his life, and if I could, I
would apologize to him. I don't remember his name or anything about him,
though, and our email exchanges are long lost to the mists of time.

But the debate about homosexuality does provide a window into another world,
if one is willing to look for it, and that's what I intend to explore here.

Let's put aside the moral arguments for a bit, though. If one is to look
purely at nature, it is obvious that man is indeed meant to mate with a
woman. I don't think even any but the most closed-minded of homosexuals
would deny that. Man creates sperm, which is made to fertilize something
inside of a woman, and 9 months later, out pops a baby. Just because one is
tolerant and accepting of the lifestyles of a homosexual person does not
change this fact - that they are acting in a manner that is contrary to the
normal functioning of a human body.

But the issue is not whether homosexuality is natural. Many natural things
happen that are, at the very least, amoral. Insects eat each other. Mammals
eat each other. The entire animal world is pretty much in a perpetual state
of war, and humans are no exception. Something being natural does not equate
with it being right, and something being against nature does not equate with
it being wrong. Everything in nature serves a purpose, and the purpose is
generally for the better of all things, but that purpose is amoral.

I don't believe in any organized religion, and I have a great deal of
difficulty believing in any kind of higher power, although I've been forced
to concede that there is probably a higher power of some kind directing
things in a very "grand scale" manner. What I am about to say assumes that
this higher power exists, but does not give it any persona or religious
affiliation. That's up to you, the reader, to add or leave out as you
choose. It's also assumed that that higher power is benevolent.

But given the existence of that higher power, there follows two separate modes
to existence - each one very real. There becomes a physical mode and a
metaphysical mode. Some prefer to call the latter "spiritual". The
metaphysical, to paraphrase the bible, refers to things that can't be seen,
felt, or heard, and therefore can't be proven.

One must then make a choice which mode they choose to follow.

If you follow the physical mode, you follow nature. Nature is at war with
itself, in order to keep a natural tension and balance going. Nature is
based on incredible beauty and design, but also on an incredible paranoia and
ruthlessness. Lions chase and eat gazelles, lightning bugs eat each other,
and everything all down the line is only interested in eating, sleeping,
keeping from being eaten, and making more copies of itself. It is amoral,
neither good nor evil, but ruthless, insatiable, and incessant.

If you follow the metaphysical mode, you don't follow nature, per se. You
live in nature, yes, you have to eat and sleep, and protect yourself, and
make more copies of yourself. But your mind is never on those things, it is
on trying to get in tune with that higher power, to find out what it wants,
to find out how you can help it in its goals. You live in nature, but you
are not subsumed by it, and therefore you are able to keep yourself detached
from its amorality.

Nature abhors homsexuality. It's true. It abhors it because one of the
primary goals of any mammal is to create more of itself, and if one is
engaging in behaviors that don't further that goal, nature has no further use
for you. And if you are a follower of nature (and hetero), of course you're
going to be repulsed by it. It's perfectly natural. Amoral, yes, but
natural. But if you are not following nature, if you are following the
metaphysical, you realize that even if they are going against nature, they
are still people, and still have something good to contribute. So you look
past it. You are tolerant and compassionate and still treat them like human
beings, and they are.

When you get right down to it, what I am saying here is no different than the
teachings that are attributed to a person called jesus. He is said to have
shown incredible compassion and tolerance, even to those whose actions he
hated and was repulsed by. This is an example we could all do to live by.

Hatred of homosexuals, for this reason, is wrong, even as repulsion by their
actions is perfectly natural. But it doesn't just extend to homosexuality -
it extends to everything. Hate what the person has done and is doing -
that's natural. Don't hate the person. Treat the person well. Treat the
person like you would like to be treated.

This is a teaching the WCG failed _miserably_ at. Instead of teaching people
to go out and love people, they taught people to go out and completely
ignore, judge, and hate people that didn't fit into their little mold. It
perpetuated the notion that there are two classes of people - the chosen, and
the not-chosen.

There are no chosen, because we are all chosen.

So, I was wrong, ten years ago. I was not wrong for stating my opinion that
man and woman were made (by whatever) to come together in a certain way, and
that not doing that was against nature. I was wrong for implying that the
man was any less of a person because of this, and for judging him by his
orientation and behavior, when it shouldn't have even been an issue.

How did that argument start? I said something stupid. I said that "It's
amazing that Tchaikovsky wrote such beautiful music, even though he was a
homosexual". I should not have said that. I failed to realize that his
struggle with his homosexuality was indeed one of the factors that inspired
him to write such great music. When one follows the metaphysical, even
unnatural things can lead to something good. I love Tchaikovsky's music -
his second and third piano concertos are two of the most passionate pieces of
music that I have ever had the pleasure of listening to and playing. Would
we have that today if he were heterosexual?

The moral of this story is simple: Those of you who purport to follow jesus,
get off your high horse and join the rest of humanity. You'll find that
people you would never have given the time of day to also have something to
offer, and it's only yourself you're cheating by being judgemental to them
and treating them like dirt.

- --Russell (who is not homosexual but has a relative who is)

Your contributions to this page are more than welcome. We will not publish your full name unless you attack us and make threats, then you go on the "Hate Mail" page and we will publish your name and email address.

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