Email To The Editor
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
A response to Russell
As much as I respect your candid email and the struggle you have had with coming to grips with the notion of homosexuality, I feel compelled to respond to some things.
At the outset it sounds like you still suffer from cult-think. WCG and the western world in general has perpetuated this. You said:
"But given the existence of that higher power, there follows two separate modes
to existence - each one very real. There becomes a physical mode and a
metaphysical mode." Physical, metaphysical. Mind, body. Male, Female. Mumbo-schmumbo. Now I am not a student of Eastern philosophy, but it seems to me that a stark division of modes sets up a free thinker for all sorts of conundrums. You say nature=physical is at war with itself. You are imposing a human judgement on nature. Another dangerous premise. You even go so far as to say "Nature abhors homosexuality." Oh really? I thought nature was "at least" amoral. "Abhor" is a strong word. Perhaps it "tends" toward reproduction...or it only appears that way. What if homosexuality was a built in control for an outta control reproductive process (perhaps another human imposed perspective). Your full 'o holes man! You sound like a herbie in sheepskin!
I don't feel I need to make a choice between two modes that you define. I am an explorer, a discoverer, an experiencer, experimenter. I am trying as hard as I can to throw off this damned hard crusty way of thinking I've been infected with and it's hard to tune out perpetuators (myself included) without completely losing it. I think I understand madness a little more.
Now it's interesting that you bring up Jesus showing incredible compassion and tolerance, even for the people whose actions he hated. I do not remember any evidence from the revered black book that even shows him discussing this distinction! A "Love the sinner, hate the sinner" Jesus is suspect. He had choice words for the pharisees, not seperating their actions from their person. And with the harlots and other "good people of bad actions" I don't remember him saying anything remotely "Well, I like so and so, but I don't approve of their actions." Even with the prostitute or whoever she was that was dragged out before Jesus. He said, as I recall, "He who is without sin cast the first stone." He was not implying she was a sinner. Sounds more like he was convicting them with a mental construct of theirs, not his.
So all I'm saying in my quasi-rambling way is that I've got a real problem with your way of thinking and that your high horse is no lower than that of the chreeestians because it rests securely on curiously similar and odious premises.
A great website indeed!
For the last 13 or 14 years,I have been cleansing my mind of the many false and controlling concepts of religious dogma and ritual.It is truly alaming how many people are lost in the quagmire of factless beliefs.Many are like impressionable children waiting to be led somewhere.I take refuge in the fact that there are people and websites' that are giving out fact based info and not personal interpretations of ancient text of which they know nothing about.The only hurdle left for me is my family,most of them anyway,and how to be honest with them about what I know to be the truth.
I know I'm not the first to be faced with this dilemma and won't be the last.My mother is the main one I'm concerned about here.She raised us all in the christian doctrine and would be heartbroken if I told her these truths.Maybe theres no easy way to do it.Shes 84 years old,however shes a very understanding and considerate human being.Thats one thing that I'm hoping will come to the forefront once I tell her.I really don't care what anyone else in my family thinks.If you have any suggestions as to the best way to go about this ( if there is one)im completely open to them.Thanks for taking the time to put the site together.It is yet another conformation of the facts and how knowledge is misused to the benefit of the few and to confuse the many.
"Killer fusion", huh?
Hey, guy...I LOVE that stuff!!! Remember Weather Report? Jaco Pastorius?
Ya like Jean Luc Ponty? Very coool stuff!
Ahem... Back to being serious....
Glad to hear that you're thinking, and not living with rote memorization of someone else's idea of what's "right".
How to handle being honest with your family? For what you "know" to be the truth"?
First -- let me say that I understand; I too have a Mom who is in the church, to this day. I love her dearly, but we just don't agree on all this God business.
What I've done, basically, is nothing. I don't bring it up. I don't wish to hurt her feelings, so...what's the point in trying to "convert" her to "my side"?
Which brings up the second major point in your email, C: you said, "what I know to be the truth."
I would caution you on saying that you " know the truth", because, frankly, you don't. I don't either. Noone I have ever met KNOWS if there is a "god".... There well may be, maybe not, I dunno. But you won't catch me telling someone else that I KNOW the truth of this matter. Because it is unknowable (read: unprovable) I find it best to stay in a comfortable state of atheism. (Everyone is an atheist, really, but that's a whole 'nuther nut to crack.)
I really agree with your sentiment on this -- it may just be a matter of semantics, but...don't forget that it's quite alright to "not know"...
If you know where I can find that sick perverted little wop who made me sit and listen to him lecture us about how to have sex by using examples of his own sex life with his wife, or who told me I could not date my wife of 13 years because she was not a student of God's college -- you let me know where I can find this sick f*** and I will show this "Dr." a size 11 Dr. Marten right up his big fat ass.Thank you for your time,Louis
We don't get into the "wop"-style language around here.
That said... I don't know where the "good doctor" is, but I'll lend ya a boot to use if you lose yours, ok? Mine are Red Wings, but they'll do fine...
Dear Author of the Site, I'm sorry I don't remember your name and already
closed the link to your site,
I actually found you while looking for the music to the Friendly Giant. I
watched it as a young girl. I was born in 1965. I didn't even realize it
was only a 15 minute show. The friendly giant made me feel good and safe
too. I can remember the intro music although I haven't seen the show in a
long long time. I can also relate to the great disappointment that life
brings, finding out that grown ups are the ones making up the dirty jokes
(4th grade). Finding out that your boyfriend had something other than
kissing in mind (10th grade). And the list goes on. I was part of a Bible
based cult from 1985 when I was born again until late 1988 when the movement
broke up. I nearly suffered a mental breakdown for my naivette. For years
I labored under the weight of all the rules I could not keep, the impossible
standards that I failed daily. Today I'm meaner, I'm more skeptical, I'm
less tolerant, but I'm doing much better. I still have love in my heart, I
still want to give, but I am definitely forever marked because of what I
went through. I know a lady who was in the World Wide Church of God. She
told me about her experience and how she came to know the truth. She
intrigued me because she seemed to know that she was free from the law and
yet she still wears no makeup, wears only skirts, and is a "Sabboth Keeper"
and calls God - Yahweh. I thought at first that she was holier than me, but
then she screamed at her kids even louder than I do and I realized we were
no different. The skirt and lack of makeup did nothing for her mouth. To
find the real God has been my constant search and not to believe what people
say about who God is. In my mind, most people pervert scripture and don't
understand the Bible at all. If someone claims things about God, then he or
she better be oozing Jesus, that's all I got to say. And that's not me, so
I only claim to be a rotten sinner, but I'm okay with that. The best to you
and God bless all who read this.
"I actually found you while looking for the music to the Friendly Giant."
Dear Mr. (sic)Do You know any site whe (sic) a digital version of Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web by David Robinson can be downloaded?Thank You in forward for any information.Frans
Hmmm... Let's see....
Hi John B,
I was just thinking about some of the points you raised, after a friend told me her granddaughter was hospitalized with shrapnel wounds from the latest suicide bombing in Tel Aviv. Yes, when Israel entered Canaan, they were instructed to annihilate the inhabitants, and got into trouble when they didn't. The laws given to Moses were enforced with the death penalty.
Now, I am trying to avoid being personally selective about what parts of the old covenant are to be upheld by fundamentalist Christians. And certainly some parts of Christianity through the millennia zealously killed unbelievers and lawbreakers. Was it Christ's instruction or intention that his followers were to continue the 'ministration of death'? I am not offering the accounts of the woman caught in the act of adultery as 'proof texts' but it is an example.
Judas Iscariot hanged himself. Annanias and Sapphira just dropped dead. And where Paul instructed certain church members to be 'disfellowshipped' he said they were to be marked and shunned, but not stoned.
A weblink from Russell: http://blog.morningmist.org/index.php?p=189
There is a lot of material in this web site! It was only the other day when I came across Joe Sr's statements about HWA's dying instructions. But I don't think he was listening! The real instructions were probably along the line of -
Appear to change minor doctrines, and it's even better if you can get your son to announce the changes. Try messing around with the makeup doctrine again - that's one of my favorites. Have Joe Jr announce the change while your off on a jet flight to visit a corrupt dictator. Then later you can slap Jr around for being too liberal, and tell everyone you never meant for it to be watered down. Write a lengthy member and cow-orker, sorry, co-worker letter about it, throw in a few pages about tithing, and wrap it up with a Lake of Fire threat.
But, as we know, Joe Sr didn't get it right - he should have taped it.
I haven't kept up with th remnants of the GTAEA. Any suggestions on GTA's dying instructions?
"Any suggestions on GTA's dying instructions? "
Not from this end....
9/06/04 Oh my!
From: "April Umstead" <email@example.com>
Subject: Oh My, my my!
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 16:21:36 -0400
Well Mr. Editor,
I read what you put on your website and I read how you totally tried to
denegrate my God and make him sound like some kind of low minded silly
mythological idiot. Truth is, most christians would cuss you out and want to
argue points with you back & forth yet I would like to open up a dialoge
w/you. Not to try to change your mind because God gives the increase but
because you were so set in your mindeset about what you suppose God is like
I'd like to talk w/you. That is unless you can't handle it.(smile) It's easy
to degrade someone you don't know, that's human nature and apparently that
comes very easy to you, however, as an representative of my God, Jesus and
as a firm beleiver in my bible, yes I am a Christian and very young one at
that, I almost thought it was funny what you wrote. Im not going to
patronize you, or berate you for you opinion. Nebuchadnezzar was probably
the same way, so was Ramesis, Manessah, Jezebel....a rack of people spoke
about God the same way you did. Some of them were changed by His grace and
ended up being the best and most zealous leaders in Christiandome (Saul who
later became Paul) and then Lazarus the rich man who died, found himself in
hell and wanted someone to go back & tell his family. I have one question?
Do you beleive the newspaper? Were you there? Did you see what happened? Can
you see wind? or do you just see it's affects? Do you have a brain? How do
you know have you ever seen it? smile don't get mad, get understanding?
God says that his ways are foolishness to unbeleivers.
E-mail me back if you wanna, but if you don't wanna I'm going to start
praying for you...My god is bigger than your unbeleif and He loves to show
Himself faithful. I've seen miracles...have you. E-mail be back
okay.......ps it was never my intention to disrespect you in this note so
please don't disrespect me...but if you do, it won't really bother me
because I love you w/ the love of Jesus and I've suffered worse than what
you could ever say to me witnessing /ministering to people and watching them
Any question you have He's got an answer.
Hope to hear from you soon,
God bless your life in Jesus name
Thank you for praying for me! I needs all I can get -- kinda like huge doses of broccoli and spinach, it does a body good. (So long as you don't breathe too much of it all at once....Gets stuck in the craw, ya know.)
"I read how you totally tried to denegrate my God and make him sound like some kind of low minded silly mythological idiot."
I say: You have a god, huh? Good for you.....
Now... Off with you and be a good human being.... Your god would like that, I'd bet...
PS-- Religious folks like you are pretty funny. Just thought I'd share that....
To: <firstname.lastname@example.org >
Subject: This website is awesome!!!
I just found your site after being out of WWCG for 7 years. I entered when I was 4 and got out in 1997 at age 26. Getting kick out of AC and leaving WWCG are two of the best things that ever happened to me. The guilt is finally gone (it took a long time) and I've never been happier!!! The realization that others have struggled with this, too, is reassuring. I've included some "you know you grew up in WWCG" items for you perusal. Thank you for taking the time to maintain this website.
-John R J________
You know you grew up in WWCG if.
1. you told your high school friends who happened to spot you on a Saturday afternoon that you were going to a wedding.
Well thanks, JR...... I'll get these onto the right webpage soon, but for now? Here they are for all the Dear Readers....
[Edit 10/05/04 -- Look HERE for these....]
9/08/04We're all familiar with the story of God punishing King David for having a military census issued, by killing 70,000 people in Jerusalem. Men, women, and children. II Samuel 24 and I Chronicles 21. I've done my research. It seems King David forgot to heed what God had commanded Moses on Mount Sinai many years earlier. Read Exodus 30:11-16. Anyone who was 20 years old or older had to give a ransom for his soul so that there would be no plague among the people of Israel whenever they were numbered in a census. They were to pay only half a dollar. The money given was to be used for the care of the Tabernacle and its repairs. Obviously, King David did not heed this Mosaic Law.
Thanks for that, Charley.
Now... Here's a place for you to send this thought. http://www.cbn.com/
I don't really care much about ransoms and souls. I think it a bunch of hooey.
9/09/04John B,I loved your September editorial, "Are You All Messed Upon Jesus?"Pragmatic. Some people need opiates and Jesus is less harmful than some other addictions. But some people don't need any opiates. Well put.Brianna
Received: from [22.214.171.124] by web12306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:24:50 PDT
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Woodcock <email@example.com>
Subject: Regarding your Website.Dear Mr. Armstrong,To save you and I a good deal of time, I thought it wise to write a short email. I wanted to indicate to you that you are a fool. I highly doubt any more correspondence will assist you in understanding this, as the scriptures say these two things:"the fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God'"AND"A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool." Prov. 17:10Therefore, it seems wise not to spend a great deal of time trying to convert those who are fools, as I would be working for quite a while according to Prov. 17:10 to acheive my goal.Feel free to post this email..Sincerely,Tony Woodcock
You said: "To save you and I a good deal of time, I thought it wise to write a short email."
Hell... I coulda saved us both a LOT of time and suggested you just go and brush your tooth or something useful. Why bother little ole me?
But you did, and you called me a fool. And you used the bible as your backup....
How very predictable.
Look... and I know this is asking an awful lot.... but... next time you or someone like you writes me?
Read the goddamned website before blowing your inbred, stupid, spittle all over the web, huh?
My name isn't Armstrong, by the way.
It seems Joshua failed to recognize what God had commanded Israel at Sinai after He led them out of Egypt. The Israelites were not to take the whole land in one year. Lest the wild animals increase in numbers and begin to attack them, their children, and their livestock. Exodus 23:27-30 and Deuteronomy 7:22. Nonetheless, Joshua and his warriors take all the land for Israel in one day. Uh, is something wrong with this picture? You bet there is. Joshua 10:42 and Joshua 11:23. However, the book of Joshua contradicts itself. It says that Joshua and his troops took the whole land in one day and in one year, and then turns around and says that "Joshua made war a long time with all those kings." Question? If Joshua made war a long time with all those kings, how is it he had already defeated all those kings? That's because he had not defeated them at all. The book of Joshua is lying. It is stretching the truth. Read Joshua 11:18. When we read the book of Joshua we often picture Joshua taking the whole land for the nation of Israel in one year. But from what we read in Joshua 14:6-15, that is not the case. According to this passage it actually took five years (not one year) for Joshua and his warriors to take the whole land for Israel. For Caleb tells Joshua that he was 40 years old when he and him and the other ten tribal leaders were sent by Moses and by God to search out the land of Canaan, so that the Israelites could go in and conquer the land. Then Caleb explains to Joshua that he is this day 85 years old.Think about it. If Caleb was 40 years old when he and the other spies were sent to search out the land for Israel, then had to march with the Israelites and their armies for forty years until every Israeli soldier dropped dead in the desert, and then after Moses' death was now 85 years old, this would mean that Joshua, Caleb, and the Israelites spent five years in the land of Canaan over Jordan fighting wars with other nations. It's really quite simple. The notion that Joshua took the whole land for Israel in one day and in one year just goes out the window.We all know the biblical story of Joshua and his troops marching around the city of Jericho only once, for seven days, and on the seventh day when they again march around the city only once, they give a loud shout and the walls of the city come crashing down. Or rather that the city wall simply fell down flat. After all the occupants of the city and their king are massacred and the city is burned with fire and destroyed, Joshua places a curse on the city. He cursed anyone who even dares to this day to rebuild the city. Now isn't that something. Joshua was not supposed to destroy these cities. He was supposed to give these cities to Israel as a present. They were to be given to the nation of Israel as their inheritance from the Lord. That means they were to occupy and inhabit these cities. Not waste them. The people of Israel had been promised that they would inherit and inhabit these cities over Jordan. But instead Joshua has these cities burned with fire, with no intention to rebuild them. Isn't that something. One does not travel forty years in the desert to then destroy cities that were meant to be inhabited. And think of how angry and upset these Hebrews would have been with Joshua who had their own families to support. They would have blamed Joshua for destroying these conquered cities for no reason. Why would they be so upset? I'll tell you why. Because these new generation of Israeli's spent forty years in the desert with their parents, living like nomads. And by now they are sick of the desert life. They want cities to live in. For themselves and their children. They are sick of living in tents. This time they want houses to live in. For themselves and their children. That's why. They would not have been happy campers with Joshua and his stupidity. Believe me.Joshua failed to recognize and heed what Moses and the leaders of Israel had commanded in Deuteronomy 20:10-18. Apparently, Joshua did not fully follow the instructions of Moses after Moses died. Go figure.
You fail to recognize that you should be writing Jimmy Swaggart with this schitt....
You said: "Believe me."
---------------I was a UK member of WCG from 89 - 96. I was baptised by a WCG minister on the 31st December 1989 in a, just above freezing, outdoor swimming pool. I presume you were also baptised as WCG member.The question I would like to ask you Ed is whether or not you acknowledge this baptism as real and authentic or not. As it happens, I do think WCG baptisms were real. Which means we are born again believers.My wife and I are a Church of two. Do we believe? You bet your life we do.Was Armstrong totally wrong in what he taught? No. Is British Israelite teaching wrong? No it's not. Will the prophecy he taught come about? yes I think it will. Are the 144,000 literal? Yes they are? Will Europe be the Beast power? Yes it will. Is the Pope an anti-Christ? Most definitely.Does mainstream Christianity know the truth? No it doesn't. Since leaving Worldwide we have only found one Grace filled fellowship. They are as rare as hens teeth.Are WCG Ministers the only modern day Pharisees? No they are not. Many mainstream Churches are full of them, Grace killers to man.ALL RELIGION IS OF THE DEVIL. Following the Lord Jesus is not religion. Living under Grace is freedom!!I have done a study on Grace which I have included with this e-mail. Hope you find it interesting.http://graceforfreedom.blogspot.com/2004/08/grace-for-freedom.htmlRegardsAdrian Clegg
Ya know what?
You are one scary dude. From this point on? You are NOT allowed to play with matches.... Any sharp objects you encounter, you report to your teacher, ok? OK????
Psssst......... My name isn't Ed. You should Read More...Talk less....
Just a piece of advice....
I am constantly in the process of seeking, and I like to share the results of
that seeking with anyone else who finds what I have to say of value. If you
don't, you're welcome to move on to something else that makes more sense to
you. I suggest you do so.
I will say this much, however: accusing me of still being in cult-think is a)
not the way to get me to listen to you, and b) shows a complete lack of
understanding of the points I was trying to make. If you're going to argue
with me, at least make sure you understand what I was trying to say before
you argue with me about it.
Dear A Nnon,
Thank you for your email.
Yes, the New Testament teaches grace and forgiveness, but the Old Testament does not. The bible appears to describe two very different gods, or at the very least, one extremely neurotic and indecisive god. The bible says that god is 'the same yesterday, today, and forever'. But if that's true, then the bible is not divinely inspired, for god's personality changes demonstrably between the Old Testament and the New. If you believe the biblical account, you can't help but conclude that god is nothing if not inconsistent.
Either god is inconsistent, or the bible is false - there is no other possibility.
John B, PT Crewchief
10/05/04Editor,These people need some professional HELP.I just read the most recent emails you posted on the PT site. The ones from Charley with all his useless Old Testament drivel, the one from the moron who called you Mr. Armstrong, the one who wants to pray for you, etc. WTF is wrong with these people? It scares the hell out of me when I realize that the average IQ of people is right around 100, and that fully 1/2 of the alleged adults on earth have an IQ less than 100 (assuming IQ is a bell curve; i.e., has a normal distribution). I can only conclude that either the average John Q. Public with his average 100 IQ is now reading the PT site or that the average person who is attracted to religion is SERIOUSLY STUPID.Well, maybe both are right.Meanwhile, on the positive side, I was extremely happy to read the letter from the lady who found the Painful Truth site because she was web-searching for the background music to The Friendly Giant! Yaaaayyy!! A posting I sent in 3 years ago that mentioned this short TV program that was shown in North Carolina caused your website to register a hit on her search. I still recall the music, too. It was a short tune from something by Bach or another of those prolific German composer dudes. Kind of like a nursery song or lullaby. Maybe Brahms or even Mozart. I watched it in the early 1950s when I was a young tad. She watched it in the late 1960s when she was young. I didn't realize it lasted all those years.Up with the Friendly Giant!Down with stupidity and stupid religion!Bill FairchildPlainfield, IL05 OCT 2004
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