Email To The Editor
(Page 67)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
2 the Editor:
Maybe I missed it on the ACTS OF GOD page, but I'd just love 2 C that inclusion that you made into the "Letters to the Editor" section added to this above article, or a link made. The part that I'm referring to is the section in red: "The god of the Bible, the god Paul worships."
I know that it's been elaborated on before, but this is an EXCELLENT précis on the whole subject.
You've listed 49 points, and for this to be questionable (for anyone with even half-a-brain) to the average "seeker," is vital, and then this must be an essential tool of investigation. If we are to break this down into mathematical language here, you've not only given any such seeker oodles of solid reasons for questioning the viability of "God," and mercy, but you've given him/her (the seeker) the numerical, and combined, questionability of : 49 to the 49th power. In other words, you given the seeker of truth: 6.60097246863 followed by 82 zeros, reasons. (My HP computer/calculator ran out of memory after that). Scramble them anyway you will - and look at the combinations - but if each is examined and cross referenced in conjunction with the others, the figures would come out this way. Personally, I doubt if any thinking soul is gonna get any more contrary thots of a religious "God" than this. Is IT trying to tell us something that we've obviously ignored? ENERGY works in strange and mysterious ways - IT's wonders to perform. Seems I've heard that somewhere. In other words, where is the logic, common sense, and loving concern with reason, in modern religion? That certainly includes the cults of the Worldweird scramble of mental and yucky mumbo-jumble - and that includes the ongoing Garner Ted Armstrong and Worldwide Church of God+ers debacles within their own struggling religio-biz.
So, I have a favor to ask. Could you (if it's not already at this time of writing) add this concise "smackaroo" to the ACTS OF GOD site? Since it's an excellent précis (in color), people will glue themselves to this stuff.
Just a thot, but I just figured I'd ask. Best. JohnO.#######
Editor,
Thanks for the help. You know, in rereading that article, it makes my hair stand on end. The line" the religious leaders get their reward now, while the sheep get theirs after they're dead" is incredible in how horrendously true it is. I know women who slept in cars with small children because they had to tithe to the almighty or be called a thief by 'robbing God of His money" but "God" didn't give a shit about them or their kids. The $8,000 salt and pepper shakers and the $13,000 ice bucket make me wish there really was a hell. I'd like to roast marshmallows on the flames shooting from him. But life goes on. Older and wiser now.
Thanks again, Bill
Dear Editor,
Please receive sincere greetings from Mexico City. I have not sent you any email since a long time, but I used to access your website very frequently. I really enjoy all sections, but I have noticed that since July there are no new messages in the "Emails to the Editor" section neither a new article. I hope you and your family are fine. I really wish you are full of new activities or busy in some other projects in your life. But anyway, Is something happen?
Please continue this project, do not give up. There are much people (ex wcgs) who need this site. I know perfectly it is a time consuming, but it worth it.
If there is something I can help, please do not hesitate to email me.
With all my regards,
Jose
REPLY:
Jose,
Thanks for your message and concern. I've just been busy with life. Plus, if nobody writes in, then I have nothing to post. I plan on keeping the webpage going as long as possible. As you can see, it is continuing to help people understand what happened to them and possibly help them so they don't let it ever happen again.
Editor
Editor
I appreciate the reply, however sincere. It is very apparent that you have a strong distaste(maybe that is a mild word!) for the Word of God. But instead of honest pursuit, it seems that your distaste has clouded your reason. We all have our presuppositions, but a scholar tries to deal honestly with the issues. The "examples" that you sent are full of unclear reasoning and things that seemingly make God an "evil" being. I contest your proposition on 2 levels.
Firstly, without a Judeo-Christian standard, what other reason is there for morality, human rights, contract,government, law, etc. It ALL comes from this ethos. Denying them, the ONLY way you can be consistent is to purport an anarcho-humanist ethos where murder if it suits you is fine. An atheistic subjectivity is a terrible place to find yourself... ask Sartre.
Secondly, on a scholarly and intellectual level, those arguments are full of logical fallacy (the whole list itself sets up a 'straw man' fallacy), translation issues, interpretation problems and equivocation. You look at the actions of God and disapprove... based on what standard? Not God's, so whose? Is it a Human Rights thing? Where did the concept that a human has value come from? God. Absent God, there are no standards. To set up you own standard is claiming to be god yourself, and that is the essence of anarcho-humanism.
I will pray for you again today.
Paul
REPLY:
YOU WROTE: I appreciate the reply, however sincere.
REPLY: What does that mean? Is that supposed to be an insult?
YOU WROTE: But instead of honest pursuit, it seems that your distaste has clouded your reason.
REPLY: Would you like to explain to me how those verses do not show that your god is an evil being?
YOU WROTE: I contest your proposition on 2 levels.
REPLY: Sorry, but you have to contest each verse on its own merits. You are completely disregarding your "holy" book. This is the book that you want to use to prove that your religion is from god and no other religion is correct. I used this very book to show that your god is an evil god. Your job is to prove that the bible does not mean what it says. If the bible means what it says, your god is, plain and simple, evil. If it doesn't mean what it says, then you have no reliable basis for your religion.
YOU WROTE: what other reason is there for morality, human rights, contract,government, law, etc
REPLY: The basic concepts for morality, human rights and etc. that you cannot see since you are blinded by your religious beliefs, come from within ourselves, from our need to cooperate with other individuals in a way that promotes the development of social interaction. It is a matter of self-preservation. What is good for the group, or society, will be good for the individual and what is good for the individual is also good for the group. The individuals, for the most part, do what will preserve themselves and this, in turn, preserves the group. It is not good for society to have individuals going around killing each other, so there are laws against such behavior. It has nothing to do with some archaic book. It is not good for society to have individuals stealing from one another, so we have laws against it. Nothing to do with the bible. If there is any one characteristic that divides humans from other animals, it may well be our ability to devise concepts of right and wrong. No bible or god is necessary.
YOU WROTE: An atheistic subjectivity is a terrible place to find yourself.
REPLY: To the contrary. Some of the nicest people I know are atheist, agnostic or deist. Some scary places to find yourself would be to be a non-christian when the Christians are looking for witches, devils or demons, going on crusades, doing inquisitions or just plain fighting and killing for their god. Christians do a very good job of imitating the behavior and ethics of the god of the bible. See the verses that I noted in my first reply.
YOU WROTE: Secondly, on a scholarly and intellectual level, those arguments are full of logical fallacy
REPLY: I didn't give you ANY arguments. I merely showed you what is in YOUR bible. You are the one that is arguing.
YOU WROTE: translation issues, interpretation problems and equivocation
REPLY: Talk about equivocation! Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeesh. So, I see you have a lot of problems with this book that is supposed to be "breathed" by the very mind of god. You true believers have a pat answer for why your fairy tale book does not mean exactly what it says whenever it puts your god or your beliefs in a bad light. Of course, wherever the book agrees with your beliefs, it is perfectly reliable.
YOU WROTE: You look at the actions of God and disapprove... based on what standard?
REPLY: My own standard, which is certainly much higher than your god's standards. You see, I find it distasteful the have babies brains smashed out against a wall. I find it distasteful to turn young virgin girls over to their captors. I find it distasteful to think that women are looked at, by the bible, as a subhuman species and only the property of men. I look at your god and I see a monster. I believe in ethics, morality, mercy, fairness, justice, etc., all things that I do not see in your god. For you to think that I am not worthy to judge your evil god only shows how absolutely brainwashed you are.
YOU WROTE: Not God's, so whose?
REPLY: I've shown you the standards of the god of the bible, do you think that humans should have those same standards?
YOU WROTE: Absent God, there are no standards.
REPLY: I guess we can see what would happen to your, so-called, morality, if you didn't think that there was a god ready to zap you forever. I guess we can only hope that you don't ever wake up to the fact that your god is a paper god.
YOU WROTE: Where did the concept that a human has value come from?
REPLY: I would think that every human who has ever lived has thought that he or she has value. I don't think that we need a god for that very basic concept. Where did the concept that a human does not have value come from? All I have to do is look into your "good book" to see that all human beings are worthless pieces of shit only worthy of death.
YOU WROTE: To set up you own standard is claiming to be god yourself,
REPLY: No. I am merely claiming to be able to THINK. I refuse to believe in a god or a religion that requires me to turn my brain off before I can follow it.
Now that you mention it, I guess the world would be better off if I were god, because my standards are higher than your god's standards. I would show up when needed. I would treat my creation like they were my children and not as though I hated them. I would not give them certain desires and then condemn them to eternal DEATH because they gave in to these desires. As a matter of fact, I think most human beings would be a lot better god than the one of the bible, if they could put their religious fantasies aside.
YOU WROTE: that is the essence of anarcho-humanism
REPLY: Huh? Do you speak English?
YOU WROTE: I will pray for you again today.
REPLY: I think you are going to have to put a little more effort into it. Maybe, if you fast and pray, your god will hear you? Or, maybe if you will give an extra large offering? Or maybe if you sacrifice your first born?
Just what do you expect to accomplish with all this praying? When will we know if it is working or not?
Editor
Dear Editor:
I know you may not be able to reply to this AOL letter, but I will send it anyway. Thank you for the section on the use of goddamn under the 3rd commandment chapter of your site. I had not really thought of the word goddamn until a friend told me not to use it because it was offensive. She said it was ok to use fuck, shit, etc, and say anything but GD. This struck a curiosity chord in me and I have been studying why the hell GD is bad. i usually get the "it is using God's name in vain" line from most. But being the curious type since age 5, I used to ask questions about everything, I wanted to know WHY GD is bad. I wanted fact/proof, why GD is bad. I once asked someone if GD is worse than "motherfucker" and he said that MF is worse. When you think about the meaning and the fact MF is someone that literally fucks their mother then that can be construed as bad no matter which way you take it. However, with GD, i thought it was mainly an adjective, for example--GD dog!, GD piece of Shit computer, etc? To me it is an adjective, an expletive, and adverb. Whereas MF is a adjective and noun.
Thank you for the site and your time, they are appreciated.
Jai
REPLY:
Jai,
Not sure what page you may be referring to but, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with using the term, God Damn. It doesn't seem to matter to any god since IT doesn't respond to this type of request any more than IT does to any other type of request. Until this god puts in an appearance, I don't think that IT can hold us responsible for any offences towards IT.
I've always looked at God Damn as a desire to curse something. Kinda like a prayer for bad things.
Barring any evidence of IT's existence, I would say that you could God Damn anything you want. Its just as effective as prayer. Nothing happens when you God Damn something and nothing happens when you pray. All it does is make the person yelling or whining feel better.
I hope this clears the problem up for you.
Editor
Rod Meredith wants to move his HQ to some city other than San Diego. Apparently, Charlotte is a frontrunner. This distressed me, and so I sent them this note:
I have noticed that a possible frontrunner city for your new headquarters is Charlotte. I am a native North Carolinian, and former resident of Charlotte for several years. I loved my time there, and love the city and community, though I now reside in Apache Junction, AZ. All communities have their flaws, even fine cities like Charlotte. One of Charlotte's main flaws is its overly conservative religiosity, and despite the presence of myself and many others to help mitigate that smear, nevertheless for the time being, Charlotte still remains far too conservative in the religious sense. Also, it was the home of the bad old PTL (well, that was just across the line in South Carolina, but the Charlotte region, nonetheless), thus giving my former city a besmirchment in its image.
Because of my love for Charlotte, and my desire to continue to see it improve, and become more human, and humane, and because of my own years of wrenching the psychological damage of Armstrongism out of my own harmed self, and especially because I have seen personally RCM go off on his rants and psychotic deliria more than once, and know of others who have faced his (demonic?) rages--Tina League, back in the early 70's in Bricket Wood, comes to mind immediately--I herewith earnestly request that the Living Church of God not further besmirch the fine city of Charlotte and its justifiably highly rated image by relocating there.
Joplin, Missouri, seems a far better choice.
Francis
Hi Fran:
Thanx 4 the note on yuckavitch MerryDeath. The info is most thot provoking. Thanx. This MerryDeath, whatever, spent (according to my San Diego source), about quarter million bucks for his hide-away retreat in Rancho Bernardo. This "uppitie" place is north and slightly to the east of San Diego. This is only where the BEST people reside. Please feel free to check the realty prices. If you're anyone who is ANYONE, then this is the locale is where you MUST live. "Ahhhhhhhh," it's said , , , the freedom . . . the openness of land . . . the gallop of the horses on the lofty, crunchy, and thumpy green . . . the occasional and wafting smell of the ocean . . . . the absence of the "plebs," . . . freedom from all of us (low-life) upper coast, and LA, nothings the crudzy, etc . . . and, isn't it wonderful the liberty of being RICH." And this is the philosophy of the rich and the famous, and the ones who rule people. This is Hebieaism. This is the philosophy of cultmasters and rulers. Basking in the sun of SoCal is one good way. Wallowing in Hawaii is another way (if U can afford it but then again, cultmasters can). How's Waikiiki, guys? I'm talking to Cultmasters.
An aside here. By the pool. The Spoken Word: "Waiter, listen you inferior . . . bring on the Dom Perignon, we'll have more sunning, and let's have more cool swimming, basking and/or (whatever) stroking (just luv the oil and the grinding and the massage) or maybe we'all just a lite a'float in that, lightly breezed, shimmering, bluish pool, and naturally an (almost) all-day screwing with one's "significant other." Watta life!" And it's all on the dumb tithepayer's expense. "In yer face, suckers." Hmmmm! As a Worldwide philosopher and cultmaster might say: "I wonder what the poor folks are doing today?" That's a real quote from an ex-Worldwide. I'm not kidding, and I KNOW his name.
And now I hear that this MerryDeath termite wants to move? How can he justify shedding a multimillion (explained later) mansion for something less? Is he totally nutz? Let's face it. He's no dummy. So obviously he won't do that. It's gotta B the money locale. San Diegans aren't stupid. They're nice folks. He's obviously not making $$$$$$$$ in SD.
Any of us would kill for a home in Rancho Bernardo. You should see this RB place. I've been all around it and Beverly Hills is on a par. You quickly learn to salivate upon viewing. Mucho Buckaroos. Rancho Bernardo and the area was an early home to Doug Fairbanks, his wife Mary Pickford, D.W. Griffith, and Charlie Chaplin. These guys KNEW what they were doing. They used part of that area to shoot movies, and collaborated to form a new studio. It became known as United Artists. Today that land is priceless. And Monsieur MerryDeath, struggling on a mere minister's salary, bought he and his wife+ a home there? Puuuullllleeeeaaase! So, we must ask the obvious question. How much of the cost of Roddy's mansion gobble up the $$$$$ of assigned buckaroos that were allocated for "God's Work?" An audit would show. Roddy? Listening?
We live in SoCal, so we know the ridiculously high the prices are, and we lived in San Diego for eight years. Trust me, RanchoB (above) is mucho and disgustingly costly stuff, and believe me Sir MerryDeath (and his
wife Cheryl) ain't gonna go down a step or two in life. Who can only imagine what this character must have purchased in Charlotte NC? We've been given good stuff here. Many thanx, Fran. But, word of this stuff only leaks out AFTER a purchase has been made. And it's usually made public on the APPRAISED (and much lower) value, and NOT on the purchase price. Cunning ugh?
But here's how these bastards do it. It's a common practice with most religious gurus. First, they pick a prestigious area. Second, they purchase a "low buy," or a fixer-upper. This means that they can then moan about how LOOOOOOOOW their house payment was. (But to us it's monumental). And so, these poor "struggling" bacteria paid only a quarter million (let's say) for a "slum" that any of us would consider luxury to survive in ONE room. Those poooooor babies! Doesn't our heart just simply bleed for these blobs?
The next step is the clincher. Parsonage expenses. Yeah . . . Right!!!!!!!!!!! There's been much said on this subject, on the PT Site before. They then use their church income to "embellish" their homes. This can take about two or three million. Please, I'm not kidding. Let them produce an independent audit on their house expenses. Don't laugh. It's happened. Didn't Herbie did this to the AC property? Look at what he did. Then when these freeloaders sell YOUR property since you've paid for it they make a fantastic killing, because of all the additions (swimming pool,
an athletic track, a parking garage, house improvements, etc), and in Herbie's case he made a killing. And you know something . . . . those improvements are ALL tax free for the cultmasters and the followers. In fact . . . .check the Constitution. It's ILLEGAL.
An ASIDE here. For all you guys and ladies who'd like to be the "would-be" gurus, I have a site to which I'd like to direct you. It's from Orlin Grabbe's (ex-WCGer) website, but it's priceless. If my wife ever gets hold of my hard-copy download, she'll kill me before relinquishing the hard copy. We fight furiously over any new books that come into our home. So, I defending any "newies" with my life. I
This stuff on Orlin's site is not only funny but surprisingly tragic. So, I must hide it before I get my guru certificate . . . but it's amazingly sobering, jolting, and accurate. I think my wonderful wife is listening or watching my computttttttttttter. It's a long read but worth it.
Orlin's (and the guru's) link is below. Thanx Fran.
Best. John.
http://www.hermes-press.com/MG/guru1.htm
Hello,
After finding your website and reading for hours, I wanted to thank you for all your effort. I laughed and was very surprised with some of the facts surrounding HWA, Garner Ted Armstrong, and Tkach. It was difficult to read of Herbert W. Armstrong deceivings knowing that my father still follows his teachings. I am 35 years old and I stopped attending in 87 (when I moved out of my parents home) after attending for 20 years (I was born in the church).
Just thought you might appreciate a positive email.
Well thank you again,
Tim
Dear Editor,
I had not checked the painful truth site out for awhile, I was glad to see someone tear into Chris Cumming, about 6 months ago I was into it with him about the unclean meat theory. Finally he decided I was pretty well informed and said he didn't want to talk about it anymore. I am 64 years old was baptized by wwcg. In 1974,kinda kept up with G.T.A.BEGINING about 1994,stopped going to church about 1981,but continued getting literature from both FALSE PROPHETS.I need to thank you after I got a computer about 7 months for informing me of things I had suspected but had no way of knowing. THANKS. By things on your site I have about got a friend in KY. to get away from the LIVING CHURCH,I HAVE ALSO BEEN showing him page after page(writing to him)of BIBLE contradictions, he's thinking now at least. I sure hope you can get the pictures of some of these leaders homes you asked for. Keep up the good work , try to keep up on G.T.A.HE'S ABOUT DUE TO WOMANIZE AGAIN,GET DRUNK,OR GAMBLE AWAY CHURCH MONEY AGAIN.FEEL free to let me know anything new.
THANKS AGAIN.
JAY
I come in peace.
I've read some of the material you have posted at "The Painful Truth" there certainly is a lot of information there and I was wondering if I might ask you a couple of questions.
First, however, I want to offer you my sympathy for the suffering you and your family have experienced.
I am a FORMER member of Jehovah's Witnesses, and lately I've been wondering if there might have been any un-acknowledged "cross-pollenization" between The Watchtower bible & Tract Society and Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. What got me wondering about this was my discovering that both organizations at one time taught that the years 1972 and 1975 would be especially significant in human history.
In the case of the WTB&TS, the teaching was that 6,000 years of human history would conclude in 1972 (later "revised" to 1975) and that Christ's millennial reign would begin soon after. I won't go into the details of it now, but that's the gist of it.
May I ask you what Herbert W. Armstrong's expectation for these years was, and if Herbert W. Armstrong presented a Bible based chronology to support his teaching?
I'm wondering if Fred Franz, the vice-president of the WTS under Nathan Knorr, might have been a student of Herbert W. Armstrong's chronology, or vice-versa.
Any help you might be able to provide in chasing down this theory would be greatly appreciated.
Best wishes to you from an "apostate" of a different stripe, and good luck in your good work!
Jim
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
I am a FORMER member of Jehovah's Witnesses, and lately I've been wondering if there might have been any un-acknowledged "cross-pollenization" between The Watchtower bible & Tract Society and Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God.
REPLY:
Any cross-pollenization can be attributed to Herbert W. Armstrong pirating any particular doctrine that he thought he could use to give him power over people. As far as I know, he came up with nothing unique to himself. Of course, all his "stealing of doctrines" were attributed to "god revealing new truth" to him.
Best wishes and good luck to you to,
Editor
Hi Editor,
Whenever I get a few minutes I read your site and a while ago I'd read something that stated that god said in the bible that it was ok to drink milk when we all know that it is definitely not safe to drink unpasturized and unhomogenized milk, something we all know but the god of the bible obviously doesn't.....that was a good point. I've been looking and can't find where I read it. My son has never given his children pork or pig products in their lives and a couple of weeks ago someone gave the kids hot dogs with pork in them and my son is really upset. I told him that the dietary laws in the bible are not even true. Could you please point me in the right direction to where I read that on your site. I've honestly looked and looked and can't find it. Thanks, Bill
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
not safe to drink unpasturized and unhomogenized milk,
REPLY:
Perhaps the page you are looking for is http://www.hwarmstrong.com/why_wcgmembers_suffer.htm ?
Rather than try to disprove some particular belief is not correct according to the bible, why not just disprove the bible? That is a lot easier.
Regards,
Editor
I was brought up in the WWCOG from 1967-1986 when I ran like hell from it. The group of kids I was with (in the church) were much worse than other kids. I will never ever go back. Just thinking about it is like a nightmare. I to had nothing to do with religion after that for 12 years. It was the perfect place to destroy people (in the name of God). I do understand your anger and DO NOT blame you for it. I am over my anger now and just feel pity for the people still hanging on. I am going to break the rules and talk about God for a second. You don't have to read anymore, I will understand. I found the real God and He is wonderful. For the first time in my life I am truly happy. They stole something from you that was not theirs to steal. Do not let them win the final battle. We both know that there is a God. Find him and win! P.S. Good job on the web site. It gives me a lot of laughs (in a sad and sick way)........
Later. Tim
REPLY:
Tim, Thanks for your message. I'm glad that you are now truly happy.
You may not realize this, but I was also truly happy with what I thought was god while I was in the Worldwide Church of God. I had found god and I knew what the purpose of life was. I had answers to every question you could think of.
I was wrong. What I believed was not based on facts but on fantasies and a fairy tale book full of multiple errors and an evil god that renders it "uninspired by any god worth worshipping."
I have been looking for this god of yours for the last 59 years. I would appreciate your giving me some proof that IT cares about mankind based on the information on my Acts of God page: www.hwarmstrong.com/acts-of-god.htm If you can do that, I would appreciate your introducing IT to me.
Regards, Editor
Dear Editor,
I heard this years ago on the Tonight Show back when Johnny Carson was hosting it: I loved it then and love it now. Thought some of your readers would get a kick out of it.
Q: What happened right after the Big Bang?
A: The First Cigarette.
Kathy
Dear Editor,
I'm sure you've already heard about this by now. Al Mischnick (sp?) a UCGminister sent this to my husband. Best news I've heard all day. G. Waterhouse literally gave me [and I'm sure countless others] terrifying nightmares with his horrible descriptions of people hanging from meathooks and how and it was going to happen to us if we didn't "qualify for God's Kingdom" or some such rot. Well, he's worm food now. Moments like this I wish I still believed in eternal punishment.
If I could set this e-mail to music you'd be reading it while hearing the
tune from the Wizard of Oz "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead!"
Kathy
----- Original Message ----From: "Richard Pinelli" <richard_pinelli@ucgia.org>
----- Original Message ----From: "Richard Pinelli" <richard_pinelli@ucgia.org>
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;;>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Death of Gerald Waterhouse
> Hello everyone,
> We wanted to let everyone know that Mr. Gerald Waterhouse died yesterday
> afternoon. Details of the funeral and other matters will be sent in the
> next day or so.
> Warmest regards, Richard
Hello, I have read your website and FAQ page and I don't believe that I have come across this question:
At one time, the Worldwide Church of God did teach that the fourth commandment, along with the other nine, was binding upon men today. What has happened to change the church's position ? By the way, I am not now nor have I ever been a member. Thank you.REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
What has happened to change the church's position ?
REPLY:
They found that there is a better market for non-Sabbath keeping beliefs. These are businessmen looking for the very best way to make money. They analyze the market and try to sell what the market wants. Religion is just like any other business. Actually, it is more like a con-game than a business, but the government gives religion the appearance of legitimacy. It is a protection racket run by a bunch of racketeers. They sell protection from eternal death. It is really a great scam if you have no morals or ethics.
Editor
While I am in agreement with some of your ideas -especially about church gov't. Garner Ted Armstrong has always taught Godly principles. I do not feel it is the responsibility of christians to spread gossip about someone personal life -in fact the Bible says it is better to cover up sins --not expose. It is really the job of the minister in his church to rebuke another minister. But I will admit the members were never allowed to participant in the church the way the bible encouraged them to do --at least in Worldwide Church of God.
Once we learn it is God's job to change us --instead of our own responsibility. Then we will stop blaming and trying to control other people. Because we understand that God is in charge of changing them too.
YOU WROTE: Garner Ted Armstrong has always taught Godly principles.
REPLY: I suppose that is what he taught to the hundreds of coeds when he gave them "personal instruction?"
YOU WROTE: I do not feel it is the responsibility of christians to spread gossip about someone personal life
REPLY: Maybe that is why these corrupt men stay in power for so long.
YOU WROTE: in fact the Bible says it is better to cover up sins -not expose.
REPLY: You know, if I was compiling a book purporting to be from god, I would make sure that was in there too, just to protect my sorry ass.
YOU WROTE: It is really the job of the minister in his church to rebuke another minister.
REPLY: Says who? Who took your rights away from you? Do you really think that these men are closer to "god" than you are? Do you really think that they are better than you? More special than you? They aren't. They are just men.
YOU WROTE: Because we understand that God is in charge of changing them too.
REPLY: If god is in charge of this world, he is a mighty sorry god and not worthy of worship. In that case, our "god" is probably in 8th grade in "God Middle School" and we are his science experiment that he has grown bored with.
Editor
HI Editor...=) I just read the email to the letter and there was a letter that caught my attention:
<<I herewith earnestly request that the Living Church of God not further besmirch the fine city of Charlotte and its justifiably highly rated image by relocating there.
Joplin, Missouri, seems a far better choice.
I just wanted to say...WE DON'T WANT HIM EITHER!! LOL
Anonymous from Joplin, Missouri
REPLY:
The Living COG has to go somewhere but, just like child molesters, nobody wants them in their neighborhood. Well, where are child molesters and religious crackpots supposed to live if nobody wants them on their block? Hmmmmmm??????
Editor
Hello,
I was born and raised in WWCG. Praise Jesus I was delivered and am now a spirit-filled Bible believing Christian.
My family still belongs to WWCG. I'm am an outcast but I cleave unto the Lord.
There was a recent suicide in Cincinnati from the West Church. I hope that for the sake of respect of the dead you don't print her name.
She was in her late thirties, I guess, I remember being a young child and going to her wedding. I do know she had three young children. I don't know the details. I know I called my mother and she said she was going to her wake-that's when she told me about her taking her life. May she rest in peace.
I also want to write that almost all of the black males that I grew up with in WWCG, are in and out of prison. Almost every African American of my generation born into WWCG sought comfort in the streets no matter what the economic background.
A woman from the Cincinnati Central area, I wont mention her name, had a nervous breakdown and was discovered walking up the expressway 25 miles away from her house. I know that WWCG was the main cause of her mental collapse. I know it was.
I thank you for this web-site. It is really helping me to heal.
Denise
Editor,
In reply to the last letter of 9/6/02, you wrote the following:
<<< REPLY:
If god is in charge of this world, he is a mighty sorry god and not worthy of worship. In that case, our "god" is probably in 8th grade in "God Middle School" and we are his science experiment that he has grown bored with.
Not only is he bored by his science project, but I think he's looking out the window and jerking off while watching Isis, Dianna, and Aphrodite practice their cheerleading. That seems to be the preferred "godly behavior" as practiced by his Armstrongite ministry, don't you think?
Oh, and on the subject of Gerald Waterhouse's death, may I tearfully submit a sad, properly sympathetic
Yaaaaaa-Hooooooooooooo!!!!!
[Ahem.] Glad that c**ks**k*r is finally gone!
John B
Seeking for answer.
I've got to find out if there is a scientific explanation that could explain some things that I've seen.
On several different occasions, I've seen people "demon possesed".
I've seen a female talk with a strange deep voice of a man. She was hostile to the minister as well as bargaining with him. "Give me this one and I'll give you ten others", she said.
On another occasion, I saw a "demon possesed" man turn supernatural flips. Then I saw his head transform into a shape of a cat!-To my relief, they "cast it out" in Jesus name and the person returned to their natural state thanking God.
Also, have you heard any scientific search in "divine healing"?
I've seen people claim that Jesus healed them. And that was their testimony.
One service I attended has me curious. I saw an amputee's arm grow back completely.
concerned,
Frances
REPLY:
I have a bridge that I would like to sell to you. Save your money and I will be contacting you when I can work out the details.
Editor
Editor:
Just learned that Gerald Waterhouse joined his mentor Herbert W. Armstrong in the Graveyard Church of God. Here's a Gerald Waterhouse joke:
Q. How did they know Gerald Waterhouse was dead?
A. He stopped talking.
Not very good, but perhaps you can start a Gerald Waterhouse joke contest. Trouble is, many people didn't think the late evangelist was very funny.
Regards, Marc
Hi,
I just want to thank you for the PT web site that you've created for all the ex members of the WWCG. This church really destroyed my life as a young person. There is so much to tell it's hard to know where to begin. But I would like to tell my story to someone who understands. There's no way I could begin to tell it all.
My mom joined the church after my parents divorce when I was 9 years old. My dad, of course, was thinking she was totally crazy. I remember when my parents were trying to reconcile at Xmas time that year, I refused to come out of my room when my dad had tried to make it the nicest Xmas ever. My mom had already told me that God didn't want people to celebrate Xmas and I was indoctrinated already. My dad never attempted again to reunite with our family. He remarried shortly thereafter. He still tried to give us bday and xmas presents which we had to return unopened. He became really cynical and would serve us dinner on our visits, then say that the meat was pork. My sister and I would stop eating the food. We had to hide in our house with the lights out on Halloween. We had to leave classrooms during holiday parties. I was already feeling like I didn't belong in "the world". It was during the early 70's when divorce wasn't too common, so I felt like a total outsider. Until I was about 16 years old I totally believed all this garbage. In the meantime, I was drinking heavily with my church friends. During the FOT I was drinking a lot, at the age of 13 or so. There was so much alcohol, I can't imagine that adults didn't have a clue. I went to SEP and partied with the Armstrong boys, meaning the sons of Garner Ted Armstrong. They were the hottest guys to be around and they had lots of alcohol to share. By the time I was in high school I had to turn down nice guys at school who had asked me on innocent dates. They were of the devil. There was never any question that I could date a "wordly guy". We ended up going to the feast in Pasadena about '81 or '82 and I read in the paper about all the questions regarding the churches finances. I was about 20 at the time. I was really starting to rationally think about the church and Herbert W. Armstrong with his marriage to the young woman, none of it made sense. I had already been excommunicated when I was 18 for my alcoholic tendencies but I had repented and I was back in the good graces of "The Church". I finally left the church for good when I was about 22 or so. I was deemed to be one of the fallen, as I had already been baptized. (Remeber that doctrine that once you are baptized you know the truth and therefore do not get a second chance in the Second coming.)
Another side to all of this is the divorce and remarriage thing. My mom had been married before so she had to wait until they changed the doctrine to remarry. My stepdad, however, wasn't so lucky. He had a short marriage at a young age, was divorced, then married another woman. They had 2 kids then joined the church. Since the evil one (Herbert W. Armstrong) said he was committing adultery, they divorced, breaking up a happy marriage, with 2 young girls. Since the ex-wife had never been married before they said the marriage to him was not valid and she was free to remarry, which she did. By the time they changed their stupid, asshole minds she was already married again.. Can't the church be sued for this kind of damage? Never mind, my mom and stepdad have never waivered in their beliefs, changes and all. They still tithe, etc. Still give money to an organization that has caused horrible grief.
Anyway, in a strange twist, my two oldest children have gone to SEP compliments of my parents. I wasn't opposed because it was supposed to be non-denominational and all the changes in the church kind of impressed me. My kids now want to attend the church and I have mixed feelings because the people seem very genuine and loving, not at all like it used to be. It's completely different and accepting. I'm still reeling from bitterness and can't accept any religion, but I don't want to deprive my kids of a healthy religious upbringing because I have been damaged.
Well, this is my story in a very abbreviated manner, of course. Any feedback would be helpful or I just hope someone can relate to my story.
Anonymous
REPLY:
Anonymous, Thanks for your message. You have certainly been through a lot. Its incredible that your mother is still in the church. I remember one older friend of ours, a lady, wondering how all her friends had left the church and she was still there. It was as though she had remained true while all these others had left. Actually, they were smart and she was the stupid one but she never realized it.
Too bad you let your kids go to SEP and get indoctrinated into the beliefs of the church.
YOU WROTE:
the people seem very genuine and loving, not at all like it used to be
REPLY:
Actually, there were many very genuine and loving people before the changes too.
YOU WROTE:
but I don't want to deprive my kids of a healthy religious upbringing because I have been damaged.
REPLY:
The problem here is that there is NO healthy religious upbringing. Its all a fantasy. Its an illusion. No religion is based upon facts. Religion is a drug for weak people. By not allowing your children to have a religious upbringing, you are doing the very best thing that you could possibly do for them. Have them build their lives on facts and truth, things that can be proven. But you can't stop there because they could be sucked into a religion later on in life. You have to educate yourself as to the facts about religion and be able to explain them to your children. You will be giving them the very best gift: FREEDOM. Your revulsion of religion should tell you that something is wrong and it isn't with you. Religion is one of the biggest evils ever foisted on mankind. If you love your children, keep them out of all churches.
Editor
REPLY:
Thanks so much for you prompt response. It's been so therapeutic to read what I felt for so long but thought I might just be "demon possessed".
I have 3 kids, 15, 12 and 6. The two older boys are very convinced with the 'saved by Jesus' concept which most all churches preach now. They want to go to church whether I go or not. I have actually attended Unity Church on and off and really feel OK with their philosophy. My kids don't like it because they say there is not a devil. Are you familiar and what do you think? Anyway, my two older boys really want to attend the Celebration Christian Fellowship, a WWCG congregation and I have let them. I have attended too, to see what it was like, and I think it's pretty mainstream. But then I can't get into mainstream religion either. My main beef is the idea that everyone must accept Christ as their Saviour to be saved. I totally think that is so ridiculous and arrogant. Are they saying that most of world isn't saved? And it's their job to save them? How weird is that?
thanks for your insights and response. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
My main beef is the idea that everyone must accept Christ as their Saviour to be saved.
REPLY:
Well, what if you could find a church that didn't preach this, would you be happy to support them in their efforts to convert the world to their other, unproven beliefs? Would you devote your life to this cause and spend your time praying and fasting for the success of the church?
YOU WROTE:
Are they saying that most of world isn't saved? And it's their job to save them? How weird is that?
REPLY:
As a matter of fact, that is what Christianity is all about. Jesus came to save the world from the evil desires that his father, who is actually himself, gave to the world. Jesus and his Father, are very weak gods. About all they are good for is "comforting" people who mourn. Anything else, they depend on human beings to do whatever needs to be done, such as protecting us, or helping us when we are in trouble, etc. If you are in a flooded mine shaft, you had better hope that your fellow human beings are looking for you because it is your only hope. These god beings need people to give money to "their" churches so that they can have these churches and ministers do their work of saving people, otherwise these unsaved people will be lost forever. If you are not giving enough money, you are not doing your part to save the world. You are actually stealing from god because everything belongs to him and you are only giving back to him what is his in the first place. Just think of how many people are being eternally lost because they are not "saved" while we are wasting time having this email discussion. Its a scary thing. That's not weird, is it?
YOU WROTE:
They want to go to church whether I go or not.
REPLY:
Sorry, but this does not seem like a "normal" thing for boys of their ages to want to be doing. Something is very wrong here. Seems as though they have been affected by more than just a SEP camp.
Editor
Hello,
I fully understand the bitterness and aggravation for times past but please tone the language down i.e., Mother- - - -!
Thank you and continue to show these @#%*&'s for what they really are.
REPLY:
Sorry if the language offends you. I try not to edit any messages. I think the writer had a legitimate question and I felt no need to play "Miss Manners" with him/her.
Personally, I would not feel that it would be appropriate for me to use the term on the website. I would also hope that we are all adult enough to realize that words are just words. The words are not taking anybody's money from them or ruining their lives by having them believe lies as the M*****F***ing, G** D***ed xCG ministers do.
Now, tell me that you did not fill in the blanks above and say the words in your mind? What's the difference? If I make you say it to yourself or if you read the actual words, its the same thing. Some people may be even more offended at the words: "God Damn" but that doesn't offend me at all.
I agree with you in that I would prefer that people did not include such language in their posts to me.
Editor
----- Original Message ----From: <MWallraff@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: READ THIS YOU DORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'M NOT GOING TO EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE A DOPE! PUNY MAN THINKING YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE SQUAT! DO US ALL A FAVOR AND TAKE SOME MOUTH WASH AND CLEAN OUT THAT HORRIBLE STENCH! YOU STINK BUDDY! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT NOW??? YOU COME OFF AS A POMPOUS IDIOT WHO DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOUR SCREAMING ABOUT TO BEGIN WITH! IN OTHER WORDS YOU ARE A RETARD FROM WAY BACK..JUST A STUPID IDIOT THAT THINKS HE HAS ALL THE ANSWERS TO EVERYTHING..YOUR A GEEK! A GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAKE UP AND DIE RIGHT YOU DOORKNOB!!!!!!!!!
REPLY:
Well, Mr. Wallraff,
If you can read this through all the spittle and foam that must be on your monitor, I presume that:
1. This means that you are going to prove that whatever you disagree with on my site is wrong?
2. You must have just gotten a computer and you are just recently on the internet.
3. You feel like everything you ever believed is being challenged.
4. You feel that, if what is on my site is true, you have wasted a good part of your life and your money on a bunch of crooks.
5. You must not be a Christian because the bible says that NOTHING will offend a true Christian.
6. If you think that you are a Christian, you do the real ones no favors by showing what an idiot you are
Regardless, thanks for reading the site, you will now be eternally infected with the truth.
Editor
I have two quick points for your email readership.
(1) To try to resolve part of the RAGING controversy over where the mind-raping LCG should relocate, let me please explain to the anonymous reader from Joplin, MO that Francis (a personal friend of mine) has lived in Charlotte, NC, which explains why he did not want UCG to move there and pollute that fine southern city with his filthy presence. And Francis suggested Joplin not because he dislikes Joplin but rather because that's where Herr Doktor Professor Roderick C. Merrydeath came from originally (if I correctly remember my ancient "church of fraud" history). But as you so wisely pointed out, nobody wants to live next to a prison for the criminally insane, landfill, trash dump, trash disposal site, paper mill, child molester, mindraping minister, or headquarters for any fraudulent cult church scam. NOT IN MY BACK YARD. Take your filth, perversion, stench, tyranny, and stupidity somewhere else.
(2) A couple of months of ago I heard Don Imus talking to George Carlin by phone. George was promoting his book "Brain Droppings". Don asked George if he (George) believed in the baby Jesus, as Don likes to refer to him. George said he was pretty sure that there was this great big Electron out there somewhere, but that this Electron was not judgmental. Sounded like a good answer and belief system to me.
Keeping it real, baby.
Bill Fairchild
Douglas, Mass.
Below is the study I did sometime ago. See you you come up with anything
different that what I found. thanks
==========================================================
REBUKE - WHEN IS IT DONE ?
PHI 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke,(298)* in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Ministers are suppose to be without rebuke.
*Strong's Reference Number: 298
Derivation: Derived from 3469
Transliteration and Definition: amometos unblameable
1TI 5:1
Rebuke(1969)* not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men
as brethren;
(A bunch of Bible quotations deleted after this)
I gather you are trying to support your previous assertion that we cannot rebuke elders.
So explain it to me in terms that a person that does not believe in the bible as inspired would understand. What good does it do to quote me a bunch of verses from a fairy tale book? What if I threw some quotes at you from the Koran? Or from Drew Carey's new book "Dirty Jokes and Beer"?
You have to give me logical, reasonable, reasons why you cannot confront a person pretending to represent a god with no other proof other than their own guarantee that they are indeed entitled to that respect. Otherwise, they are no better, no more worthy of respect or lack of rebuke than you are. Show me some proof that there is a god that is rebuking these charlatans. Show me some proof that there is a god actively involved with mankind, at all.
PROOF, PROOF, PROOF.
Editor
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