Email To The Editor
(Page 68)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
2 the Editor:
Some of the last group of letters you got were most interesting, so I'd like to comment on a few.
Regarding the beef the writer had about accepting Jesus or you're not saved, here is a paraphrase of an interview done by Larry King with Billy Graham's daughter. She's been on a few times. In the course of one of these interviews, the subject of salvation arose.
GRAHAM: You must accept and confess the Lord Jesus to be saved.
KING: But, I'm Jewish. Where does that leave me?
GRAHAM: You must accept and confess the Lord Jesus to be saved.
KING: And what about all the other of the world's population that have never heard of Jesus?
GRAHAM: You must accept and confess the Lord Jesus to be saved.
KING: What about most of the past humanity that have gone and died and have never heard of Jesus?
GRAHAM: You must accept and confess the Lord Jesus to be saved.
KING: You're saying that unless you confess Jesus then you won't be saved?
GRAHAM: You must accept and confess the Lord Jesus to be saved.
KING: Will I burn in hell if I don't accept Jesus?
GRAHAM: You must accept and confess the Lord Jesus to be saved.
KING: So anyone who doesn't accept Jesus is going to burn in hell?
Graham changed the subject.
Regarding the relocation of the UCG. I would suggest another galaxy.
Regarding the "REBUKING-WHEN IS IT DONE" piece:
With regards to the rebuking of a minister or elder, then the answer's simple. There are NO ministers or elders.
Best. JohnO.
I have looked at several anti Armstrong sites on the internet and yours is the most hate filled one i've seen to date. You say you don't hate Mr. Armstrong? That reminds me of a political party we once had in my part of the world. Their main claim to fame was they were anti French, but they would say: "We're not against the French". "Why some of my best friends are French". Or: "My wife is French". Then in the next breath they would complain about something and blame it on the French.
As to the accusations against Mr. Armstrong: With all the misleading information, untruths, rumors, allegations and so on that these sites contain, why should or would anyone believe any of the so-called "proofs" or anything else that is mentioned? Especially since many are produced by former members that couldn't stand being kicked out of the church (and are perhaps seeking revenge?). Would you believe what you read on a pro Armstrong site?
But let's suppose, for sake of argument, that the worst of what you say is true and that Armstrong was as evil and despicable as you say. What does that have to do with what he preached? If what he preached was true (that is: what the Bible really says) then no matter how evil he may have been, that would not change what the Bible says, the Truth would still be the truth (not your kind of truth, but REAL Truth). Remember: (whether you believe it or not - doesn't matter) the most evil being that ever walked this earth (more evil than a thousand Armstrongs put together could ever have been) often quoted Scripture (as do you), but that didn't make that scripture invalid! It's not who says it that makes it right (or wrong), it's what they say!
And as to him not being an apostle of God because God wouldn't use a man like that. Well, God used men like that all the time. David being one (and yes, i read your weak reasoning in "The David Defense."), and another was Saul (who was renamed Paul and wrote a good part of the New Testament), a man who, like you, was anti-christian/anti-christ (hey, maybe there's hope for you yet) and persecuted many Christians by having them thrown in prison, threatened, and slaughtered. Perhaps God used these people because when they spoke of evil they were speaking from first hand experience and knew of what they spoke and of how bad man can get. Now you can argue that David sinned after he was called of God and Paul sinned before he was called therefore they were different then Armstrong. Well, regardless of when they sinned, they were both sinners! And the Bible doesn't say that God can't use a man while in sin. God (fortunately) doesn't think like us puny humans. He looks at things quite differently and knows what's best for us even when we don't. Now you may call using a sinner to preach against sin is hypocritical, but ask yourself a question: If you were a parent and a heavy smoker, and knew the dangers to health and life caused by smoking, would you warn your children not to smoke (not to follow what you do but to listen to what you say), or would you think that it would be hypocritical to say anything because you still smoke, and not tell them anything but just let them find out for themselves and perhaps wind up with a serious health problem or dead? I think most parents would want to warn their children of dangers to their health, and so would Gods ministers want to warn Gods children of the dangers of sins, even if that minster is still commenting a great sin (and all sins are great in Gods eyes).
If you really understood what the Bible says, you would know that since no one is perfect (in other words, not even Gods ministers) God uses sinners all the time. If he didn't he wouldn't have any ministers. You don't suddenly become sinless just because you are preaching the Gospel. Although you are to try to be perfect, battling sin is a life long fight.
I'm also puzzled by some (many) of your answers in your FAQ? Why DID you borrow money to pay a tithe? Don't you know what a tithe is? I believe the Bible says a tithe is a tenth of your increase. Borrowed money is a deficit. I don't know about your local minister but Mr. Armstrong never taught us to borrow money to pay tithes.
To another question part of your reply was "if he did not have the god of the bible standing over him with the threat of eternal torture and damnation". This, along with some of your other statements makes me wonder if you ever really listened to Herbert W. Armstrong? Did you ever read and understand what the Bible really says? Do you not know that the Bible does not say (nor did Mr. Armstrong) that you will receive "eternal torture"???
And as far as your "Free Thinking" goes, well man has been practicing that for 1000's of years and where has it got him? As a result we have all kinds of Violence, Wars, Greed, Murders, Rapes, Thefts, Lies and dishonesty, Corrupt Governments and Cooperation's, Child abuse, Wife abuse, and on and on it goes. So much for your "Free Thinking" society. God says man does not know right from wrong, and man, are we ever proving that right!
By the way, i didn't see anything about prophecy on your site? You know prophecy. It's the proof of the Bible that no one can deny (unless they refuse to accept the facts).
Thank you for reading this and may the God that you don't accept have mercy on your poor deceived soul.
Keith.
REPLY:
Keith,
I will try to answer your questions but I doubt you can accept the answers.
YOU WROTE: You say you don't hate Mr. Armstrong?
REPLY: No, I don't "hate" him any more than I hate snakes, mosquitoes or spiders. I don't hate him any more than I hate thieves, rapists and murderers. I just think that the world would be a lot better off if none of them existed, including HWA. I don't expose him because I hate him, I expose him so that his victims will know the truth about him and his evil spawn who continue to perpetrate his madness on other innocent people.
YOU WROTE: yours is the most hate filled one i've seen to date
REPLY: Well, if you have a problem with people learning the truth, I really don't care what you think.
YOU WROTE: As to the accusations against Mr. Armstrong: With all the misleading information, untruths, rumors, allegations and so on that these sites contain
REPLY: Well, if there are so many, maybe you could point them out for everybody. I've said from the beginning that I would change anything on the site that anyone would prove not to be true. Why don't you take me up on that? Be specific.
YOU WROTE: Especially since many are produced by former members that couldn't stand being kicked out of the church (and are perhaps seeking revenge?).
REPLY: Well, do you think anyone could stay a member and tell the truth about what was going on? So, if you told the truth, you would be disfellowshipped and then you couldn't be believed because you were disfellowshipped and obviously bitter. Catch 22. David Robinson, who wrote Herbert W. Armstrong's Tangled Web, gave up a very good paying ministerial job and his life savings to publish that book. Armstrong never disputed anything in the book. Robinson died a couple of years ago after working for a number of years as a janitor. He did it so you could read the truth about the Armstrong empire. This man was not bitter. He stayed true to Armstrong's teachings to the end of his life. Are you also saying that Jack Kessler, of "The Kessler Letter," should not be believed? He was still a member of the Worldwide Church of God, last that I heard.
YOU WROTE: why should or would anyone believe any of the so-called "proofs" or anything else that is mentioned?
REPLY: You have a brain, decide for yourself what logically seems to be the truth once you have examined all of the evidence. How about putting aside the fact that you don't want to believe any of it? How about just looking at the facts as though they were the facts about, say, Jimmy Swaggart or some other religious con-man? Try not to be swayed by your desire to believe that Herbert W. Armstrong was god's chosen apostle and couldn't possibly be boinkng his young daughter for ten years while he was "preaching the gospel" and building "god's church."
YOU WROTE: Would you believe what you read on a pro Armstrong site?
REPLY: Well, I would certainly be a fool, if I did, knowing what I know. There are idiots and then there are religious idiots Religious idiots are worse.
YOU WROTE: If what he preached was true (that is: what the Bible really says) then no matter how evil he may have been, that would not change what the Bible says, the Truth would still be the truth (not your kind of truth, but REAL Truth).
REPLY: The REAL Truth is that your bible is flawed. It is not inspired by any god worth worshipping. It represents an EVIL god that should only be, if possible, ignored by any intelligent person. The REAL truth is that, even if Armstrong did preach what was in the bible, he would be no better than any other religious con-man. The book is a fairy tale book. Talking asses, talking snakes, dead people crawling out of graves, the Sun standing still, the moon producing its own light, virgin births, people walking on water, water turning into wine, a fish swallowing a man and the man lives for three days, etc. No that's not Grimm's Fairy Tales, its your bible. So what criteria do you use to judge that Grimm's fairy tales is not true but your bible is god's word? I would suggest that you use that same criteria on ALL books purporting to be "from" a "god."
YOU WROTE: Well, God used men like that all the time.
REPLY: Not a god with very high standards, I'm afraid. But, judging by the reported actions of this "god of the bible" I would say he was choosing men that had the very same character flaws and lack of morality and ethics as he did.
YOU WROTE: and another was Saul (who was renamed Paul and wrote a good part of the New Testament),
REPLY: Spare me your condescension, I know the bible as well as you, if not better. I do not reject it because I don't know it. I reject it because I DO know it.
YOU WROTE: God (fortunately) doesn't think like us puny humans. He looks at things quite differently and knows what's best for us even when we don't.
REPLY: Bullshit. You are merely making excuses for a god that does absolutely NOTHING for mankind. You can prove nothing about your god. All you can do is make up things to try to explain his UNinvolvement with humanity. "God knows best" is the great cop-out for god not doing anything to help mankind. The opiate of the masses is religion. It helps though doesn't it? Take your daily dose of the bible drug and call me in the morning. Don't be afraid, you will never really die. And, you will also see all your dead loved ones again, some day. God will make all things right, some day. Just don't hold your breath. All the good things happen after you are dead. And, if they don't? Well, who is going to come back and kick the religious con-man's ass? It is the perfect scam that can even be put over on a seemingly intelligent person such as yourself. When it comes to religion, all sanity is left at the door.
YOU WROTE: I think most parents would want to warn their children of dangers to their health,
REPLY: I think, if your god were a real parent, he would be in jail for child abuse.
YOU WROTE: If he didn't he wouldn't have any ministers.
REPLY: So, this god of yours really has a communication problem, doesn't he? If this god had anything to communicate to mankind, he should step up to the microphone and tell everyone what he wants and not, supposedly use corrupt men and women to bring his message to his creation. Why should anyone with a brain accept that any man is ordained by this god to show us how to live? Where is the proof? Where are the credentials? Can every person that purports to be a "man of god" be believed? If he preaches what is in the bible, is that okay? Well, there are many different interpretations out of that good book which has led to many, many different religions and denominations. There is obviously not even agreement within the xCG churches. I remember going from one Worldwide Church of God church to another and hearing different interpretations. Who is right? Does each person get to chose his own church based on his own private interpretation of the bible? Its either that or there is only one true belief. That means that MOST people are going to be very wrong. You see, your religion is very shaky when you start to think about it. You can prove NOTHING rational about what you believe. You can't even get a prayer answered that can't be explained as a coincidence.
YOU WROTE: You don't suddenly become sinless just because you are preaching the Gospel. Although you are to try to be perfect, battling sin is a life long fight.
REPLY: It is amazing to see a, seemingly, intelligent human being sell his ability to reason and think rationally for the promise of eternal life.
YOU WROTE: I don't know about your local minister but Mr. Armstrong never taught us to borrow money to pay tithes.
REPLY: I have to believe that you were never there. I wonder if you ever attended a Worldwide Church of God church in the Herbert W. Armstrong era? I begin to wonder if I am wrong and that you are not "seemingly intelligent." Herbie was the ringleader of those that would wring the money out of all of us for the slightest reason and he did not hold back on the guilt trips or reminding us that we were STEALING from god if we did not give MORE than we could afford. This was an incredibly corrupt man, stealing from poor, old, sick and handicapped people. This man had absolutely no morals at all. Money was his god.
YOU WROTE: This, along with some of your other statements makes me wonder if you ever really listened to Herbert W. Armstrong?
REPLY: Are you kidding? I would have sold all I had and followed him out into the desert.
YOU WROTE: Did you ever read and understand what the Bible really says?
REPLY: I understood and believed it with all my heart until I read what it really said and didn't try to explain things away that I didn't like or agree with. You know what? You don't worship a god, you worship a book. And your book is flawed. Your god is flawed. You worship a paper god. The best use of your god would be as toilet paper, and, it wouldn't be very good at that.
YOU WROTE: Do you not know that the Bible does not say (nor did Mr. Armstrong) that you will receive "eternal torture"???
REPLY: Torture, torment? Who gives a good shit? Not me. Sorry, not going to play any stupid bible games with you. All I have to do is discredit the book; I don't have to get into word translations and going back to the original Greek/Hebrew, etc. Once the book is discredited, there is no point in arguing about words and verses.
YOU WROTE: As a result we have all kinds of Violence, Wars, Greed, Murders, Rapes, Thefts, Lies and dishonesty, Corrupt Governments and Cooperation's, Child abuse, Wife abuse, and on and on it goes.
REPLY: I guess you must be referring here to the results of people believing in religions. Religion: the curse on mankind.
YOU WROTE: God says man does not know right from wrong, and man, are we ever proving that right!
REPLY: Well, you certainly are with your religious idiocy.
YOU WROTE: By the way, i didn't see anything about prophecy on your site?
REPLY: I can help you with that. Here it is: Prophecy Index
YOU WROTE: You know prophecy. It's the proof of the Bible that no one can deny (unless they refuse to accept the facts
REPLY: Maybe you would like to educate me on this "proof of the bible" since it is so obvious to you? Herbert Armstrong could only come up with ONE prophesy (bible_herbdisproves.htm ) that he thought would prove the bible was true, he even had to plagiarize that one but it turned out that what he plagiarized wasn't even a true prophetic fulfillment and the whole booklet had to be recalled out of embarrassment. So educate me, prophecy boy. Give me those FACTS. Make sure it is something obvious so it can't be misinterpreted. I'm sure that, since this is the PROOF of the BIBLE, that it is something that everyone will be able to recognize and therefore be without excuse. I think that I will be waiting for a long time because I know you have absolutely nothing. I'm not as stupid as you think. I spent 25 years of my adult life believing all the moronic idiocy that you do. I am now able to use my brain again, unlike yourself. You don't have a prayer, so to speak. Or, pray all you want; your god is useless.
If prophesy is your best proof of the bible, you have very little to base your religion on.
YOU WROTE: may the God that you don't accept have mercy on your poor deceived soul.
REPLY: Yeah, whatever.
Editor
A friend of mine directed me to your site. My friend and I had been confused by religious deceivers, including the Armstrong cult. My purpose for writing is that I feel your pain because of my own religious disillusionment. I had given my life to a church in many ways similar to what you did. I specifically identified with the tithing, healing issues, the threats and sacrificing family to do the work of the Lord.
I gave up organized religion for about 20 years after my life crashed. Through friendships with undesirable people whose lifestyle is not accepted by religion, God revealed that He still loved me. In my desire to understand myself and the disaster that happened to my life, I attended a meeting in an old roller rink. They never passed the offering plate, there was no pressure to give money or join the church and there was no coercion. At first I was skeptical but their practical acts of love for the community and the worship services that honored the Son changed my heart. I think that I now have a more healthy Biblical understanding and have recovered from the painful truth. I hope you too will find the answers you need to find peace with God.
Sincerely,
John
REPLY:
YOU WROTE: They never passed the offering plate, there was no pressure to give money or join the church and there was no coercion.
REPLY: So, these are the qualifications that say they must represent a god? I'll admit that it is a positive but these are not credentials.
YOU WROTE: At first I was skeptical but their practical acts of love for the community and the worship services that honored the Son changed my heart.
REPLY: Sorry, but someone is going to have to change my brain, not my heart. I no longer think with my heart, that's what got me in trouble before.
YOU WROTE: I think that I now have a more healthy Biblical understanding
REPLY: I also have a "healthy Biblical understanding" and the bible does not represent any god that I would want to worship. Tell me what is healthy about this god in regards to the scriptures on this page: bible_god.htm I would like to know how you can compromise your own ethics and morality to follow such an evil being.
YOU WROTE: I hope you too will find the answers you need to find peace with God.
REPLY: I'm not looking for god or answers; wasted too much of my life doing that already. There are no answers and, if there is a god, I hope it is not the one of the Bible. Nevertheless, I wish you well. If your drug, whether it be the Bible, Religion, Marijuana, Heroin, Opium, Crack, etc. brings you peace of mind and "answers" in a dog-eat-dog world where there is no evidence of a loving, caring, involved God, then so be it.
Editor
"So I watch all this murdering and blame placing, all in the name of god, and I see no godly intervention. No godly help. No godly caring in any of this. And I cannot accept that what I thought were interventions in my life were actually any kind of help from "god." After we first left the cult, I was still delusional. I was still looking for god in my life and still finding him in coincidences and synchronicities. What good is a god like that? I have finally reached the point where I no longer want a god in my life that will help me get a job but will let my wife die of ALS. I do not want a god in my life who will help somebody get a parking place but will let thousands of innocent people die in the WTC."
Where was God on Sept. 11, 2001? God stopped many people from getting on those planes that day! God helped people get out of the WTC towers before it collapsed. God gave strength to those who had to call home to tell their wives/husbands that they're not going to make it, that they love them. God held the wives/husbands up as they heard this shocking news. Gave them strength to continue on. God gave those men on the fligth that crashed in PA strength to overcome the hijackers. God carefully placed that plane in a deserted area so that no more people would be killed than were supposed to be. God brought many of His children home that day, to live with Him and have a wonderful eternal life. God was with our President as he heard this shocking news. God was so prevalant through Sept. 11. Yes, it's traggic that this happened, but there's a reason that it happened. God was telling us something that day. Why should God bless America when His son Jesus isn't even welcome? We have been so selfish and corrupted through the years that it breaks God's heart. Think about that for awhile...
Laura
Laura,
YOU WROTE: God stopped many people from getting on those planes that day!
REPLY: Why? Did he, just as actively, "make" people get on? Don't we have any freewill? Are we just puppets for this God to play with? Why didn't He stop the hijackers from getting on? That would have saved everyone, including Himself, a lot of trouble.
YOU WROTE: God helped people get out of the WTC towers before it collapsed.
REPLY: Well, almost 3000 people didn't get out. That includes the ones that got out by jumping from the top floors because your God did not answer their pleas for His intervention. Did your God run out of power and just couldn't help those 3000 people? As a matter of fact, PEOPLE were helping people get out. There would have been a lot more deaths if everyone would have waited for your god to get them out.
YOU WROTE: God gave strength to those who had to call home to tell their wives/husbands that they're not going to make it, that they love them.
REPLY: I guess, without God helping them, they would have never made those calls. I guess there were no Non-Christians making phone calls.
YOU WROTE: God held the wives/husbands up as they heard this shocking news. Gave them strength to continue on.
REPLY: Ditto, above reply. God gives strength, god holds up, god gives comfort, but god can do nothing provable. God is impotent when it comes to doing anything that really would help. God could have saved himself a lot of his "godwork" of comforting and holding up, etc. if he would have just intervened a little. Everything you attribute to your "god" doing, would have happened anyhow.
YOU WROTE: God gave those men on the fligth that crashed in PA strength to overcome the hijackers.
REPLY: Oh, thank you Jesus for strength! Those non-Christians didn't have a chance with god strengthening those men. But not enough strength to overcome them and keep the plane from crashing and killing them all. What a weak, pathetic god.
YOU WROTE: God carefully placed that plane in a deserted area so that no more people would be killed than were supposed to be.
REPLY: Why not place it somewhere where nobody would be killed? Oh, I forgot. You said they were supposed to be killed. Well, if you are supposed to be killed, ordained by God, why try at all? If we have no free will at all, if we are all at the mercy of a mad, killer god, what is the point of anything?
YOU WROTE: God was with our President as he heard this shocking news.
REPLY: Yeah, I'm sure he would have never survived if god hadn't been there with him. No leader has ever gone through so much trauma before, in the history of the world, without god helping him to be able to take the shocking news.
YOU WROTE: God brought many of His children home that day,
REPLY: God let many people die that day that wanted desperately to go on living. He could have saved them if he was any god worth worshipping.
YOU WROTE: to live with Him and have a wonderful eternal life.
REPLY: You have absolutely no proof of that. And, I gather you are referring to only the Christians because, according to the bible, the rest of them are lost forever.
YOU WROTE: Yes, it's traggic that this happened, but there's a reason that it happened. God was telling us something that day. Why should God bless America when His son Jesus isn't even welcome?
REPLY: Well, I would think that he would at least bless those Christians who were following Him and trying to obey Him. (It is the Christian god that you are referring to, I gather.) Or, maybe He did? Can we assume that all those that died were either bad Christians or non-Christians or that your god will punish the good with the bad just to teach the bad people a lesson? Seems a little childish of God.
YOU WROTE: We have been so selfish and corrupted through the years that it breaks God's heart. Think about that for awhile...
REPLY: Well , god created us the way we are, is that our fault? Poor god. He did His best but he just couldn't create a perfect human being. Well, he'll get even with them: he'll punish them in ever burning hell since they can't live up to his expectations. He is so sad and it just breaks his widdle heart. But, before He burns and torments them in Hell Fire, He will jerk them around and promise that He will give them protection, answer prayers, heal and etc. and then do absolutely NOTHING. But, don't worry, whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Right? If God doesn't help you, He is just testing you to make your stronger. What a bunch of religious BS to excuse a non-involved, uncaring, bad excuse for a god. Too bad that, after seeing the utter abandonment of the human race by this "god," you don't wake up from your religiously drug induced stupor but I guess that is too much to expect.
Think about that for awhile....
Editor
From: Laura Leigh
To: Editor
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: Your webpage
First of all, I'd like to start out with, sarcasm is not needed. I'm sorry that you've been burned by a cule, and that's all it is, a CULT, so don't judge Christians by what the cult did. Think about how many people worked in the WTC towers and in the Pentagon. Now think about how many died all together. Less that 1/3 of what worked in those buildings. God was watching out for people (not just Christians by the way). Christians did die in the attack. Think about this. I'm sure that my best friend wanted to continue living, but instead, God had a different plan for him. He brought him home. Do you think that everytime someone dies, God is being unreasonable, that he coul dhave saved them? No.In the beginning, God DID create a perfect man, but once they decided (with free will mind you) to eat of the forbidden tree, we were no longer perfect. So to answer your question about how come God didn't create a perfect man, He did!
Laura
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
First of all, I'd like to start out with, sarcasm is not needed.
REPLY:
Sorry but the sarcasm is the only thing that keeps me from smashing my head multiple times against a concrete wall when confronted by your absolute, mind-boggling, mind-numbed, blind belief in something that you have no proof of at all.
YOU WROTE:
so don't judge Christians by what the cult did.
REPLY:
I've got news for you: Christianity IS A CULT!
cult \"k€lt\ n 1 : formal religious veneration 2 : a religious system; also : its adherents 3 : faddish devotion; also : a group of persons showing such devotion — cult•ist n
Accept it. Deal with it.
YOU WROTE:
Think about how many people worked in the WTC towers and in the Pentagon. Now think about how many died all together. Less that 1/3 of what worked in those buildings. God was watching out for people (not just Christians by the way).
REPLY:
One third? I don't think your figures are correct but, apparently you think that is an acceptable loss. How many would have been lost if God had not been watching out for people? Why did God watch out for non-Christians (as you said) and let Christians die? If the non-Christians are the ones that are responsible for "Jesus not being welcome," and therefore responsible for the lack of protection by God, why save these evil people and let the Christians die?
YOU WROTE:
Christians did die in the attack. Think about this.
REPLY:
You are the one that is NOT THINKING about this. What good is a God that will not protect you from evil people? Oh, I guess I forgot that you only can collect on the promises of "God" when you are dead. So, I guess God was actually doing the Christians a favor by letting them die because then they would finally get a little help and protection from Him.
YOU WROTE:
God had a different plan for him. He brought him home.
REPLY:
You have NO PROOF at all of this. You only hope, when you see absolute, mindless tragedy, that there is some god that has some kind of plan other than the blind time and chance that we see in this world. There is NO EVIDENCE to support the belief that there is a god that has a plan or that there is life after death. You can believe it if you want but you can also believe that Mickey Mouse has a plan for us and Mickey brought your friend "home" and ate him on a cracker. Believing does not make anything true.
YOU WROTE:
Do you think that every time someone dies, God is being unreasonable, that he coul dhave saved them?
REPLY:
No. I think when people die, they die. I think there is no god that is intervening in our lives at all. I don't see any benefit in believing in your god since He obviously cannot be depended on for anything. I don't feel betrayed by your god at all. You are the one that should feel betrayed but you are so high on your drugs that you cannot think straight.
YOU WROTE:
In the beginning, God DID create a perfect man, but once they decided (with free will mind you) to eat of the forbidden tree, we were no longer perfect. So to answer your question about how come God didn't create a perfect man, He did!
REPLY:
Perfect? I don't think so, since this god, supposedly put a brain and certain animalistic desires and pulls in man. If God was surprised at the decisions that his creation made, He is not as smart as you give Him credit for.
But, let's put an end to this discussion. You are so mindlessly drugged by your religion that we cannot have an intelligent conversation.
Editor
REPLY:
From: Laura Leigh sfasweetie06@hotmail.com
To: Editor
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 2:32 AM
Subject: Re: Your webpageIt seems more like you're so full of anger and hatred towards the cult that you willingly joined (free will can suck sometimes eh!?!?!) that you take it out on Christians and God. We're not the problem, God's not the problem, but YOU DO HAVE A PROBLEM! Maybe if you spent less time on your website trying to expose this cult, then you wouldn't have so much hate in your life. It's pretty pathetic that you have to stoop so low just to get rid of your anger. Seek some help and maybe you'll have a happier life, because as of right now, you seem not to have one at all!
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
because as of right now, you seem not to have one at all!REPLY:
I'm not the one that surfs the Internet looking for people that I disagree with and then write to them telling them how wrong they are.So, which one of us doesn't have a life?
I notice that you didn't address anything that I wrote to you. I answered all your questions and you didn't answer anything. But, you had your chance. This "conversation" is over. Any further messages from you are directed to the trash.
Editor
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Estey kestey@nb.sympatico.ca
To: Editor
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: The Painful....Truth???
Well Greetings.
Thank you for your reply to my email
Your reply was as expected and confirmed what i suspected, but i will try to respond to your comments.
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Editor wrote:
Keith,
Thank you for your message. I will try to answer your questions but I doubt you can accept the answers.
YOU WROTE:
You say you don't hate Mr. Armstrong?
REPLY:
No, I don't "hate" him any more than I hate snakes, mosquitoes or spiders. I don't hate him any more than I hate
thieves, rapists and murders. I just think that the world would be a lot better off if none of them existed, including
Herbert W. Armstrong. I don't expose him because I hate him, I expose him so that his victims will know the truth about him and his evil spawn who continue to perpetrate his madness on other innocent people.
MY RESPONSE:
Hum....still sounds like hate to me. And sounds similar to what i read on your web site.
YOU WROTE:
yours is the most hate filled one i've seen to date
REPLY:
Well, if you have a problem with people learning the truth, I really don't care what you think.
MY RESPONSE:
The problem is not learning the truth, the problem is when you reject the truth as you have and then put up a web site and try to portray to others that only what you think is the truth and if anyone disagrees with you then they're wrong. Wasn't one of the reasons why you rejected Mr. Armstrong's teaching was because he claimed to preach the truth and you didn't agree?
If you want people to be "Free Thinkers" as you claim and if those "free Thinkers" decide to reject your version of the truth and to accept Gods truth, should they not be free to do so?
YOU WROTE:
As to the accusations against Mr. Armstrong: With all the misleading information, untruths, rumors, allegations and so on that these sites contain
REPLY:
Well, if there are so many, maybe you could point them out for everybody. I've said from the beginning that I
would change anything on the site that anyone would prove not to be true. Why don't you take me up on that? Be specific.
MY RESPONSE:
Again this sounds like the same thing you said on your site. Come on now, you know as well as i that you will not except anything (proof or otherwise) that goes contrary to your way of thinking. So i wouldn't waste my time nor yours trying to do so.
Besides that, if i pointed out all the errors, misleading information, etc. the email would be so huge that your ISP (ISP stands for Internet Service Provider) would probably reject it.
YOU WROTE:
Especially since many are produced by former members that couldn't stand being kicked out of the church (and are perhaps seeking revenge?).
REPLY:
Well, do you think anyone could stay a member and tell the truth about what was going on? So, if you told the
truth, you would be disfellowshipped and then you couldn't be believed because you were disfellowshipped and
obviously bitter. Catch 22. David Robinson, who wrote Herbert W. Armstrong's Tangled Web, gave up a very good paying
ministerial job and his life savings to publish that book. Armstrong never disputed anything in the book. Robinson died a couple of years ago after working for a number of years as a janitor. He did it so you could read the truth about the Armstrong empire. This man was not bitter. He stayed true to Armstrong's teachings to the end of his life.
Are you also saying that Jack Kessler, of "The Kessler Letter," (www.hwarmstrong.com /kessler.htm) should not be believed? He was still a member of the Worldwide Church of God, last that I heard.
MY RESPONSE:
So any thoughts contrary to Mr. Armstrong's beliefs would not be acceptable to him, and any thoughts contrary to your beliefs are not acceptable to you. In other words, you are doing the same thing that you criticize Mr. Armstrong for. Hummm.
YOU WROTE:
Let's put at least alittle bit of what i wrote back together, instead of breaking it up into pieces:
"As to the accusations against Mr. Armstrong: With all the misleading information, untruths, rumors,
allegations and so on that these sites contain," why should or would anyone believe any of the so-called "proofs" or anything else that is mentioned?
REPLY:
You have a brain, decide for yourself what logically seems to be the truth once you have examined all of the
evidence. How about putting aside the fact that you don't want to believe any of it? How about just looking at the
facts as though they were the facts about, say, Jimmy Swaggart or some other religious con-man? Try not to be
swayed by your desire to believe that Herbert W. Armstrong was god's chosen apostle and couldn't possibly be boinkng his young daughter for ten years while he was "preaching the gospel" and building "god's church."
MY RESPONSE:
Well, when one looks at the type of people that have these sites and one knows that ALL are bias against Mr. Armstrong (or anyone or anything else) then when one uses his brain (as you put it) and looks at it logically they are most likely to come to the conclusion that what is claimed on these sites is somewhat suspect.
As far as the claim of incest goes, if it's true then i agree it was a terrible, despicable thing to do. But, as i said before, God (unlike you), is willing to forgive all sins, no matter how evil they are because he looks at what a person is Today, not what they used to be. But i know you can't understand that.
YOU WROTE:
Would you believe what you read on a pro Armstrong site?
REPLY:
Well, I would certainly be a fool, if I did, knowing what I know. There are idiots and then there are religious idiots
Religious idiots are worse.
MY RESPONSE:
Afraid to find out that you might be wrong about something, eh? Well, if you can't accept anything on those sites then how do you expect anyone to believe what's on yours? Oh, i forgot, only you know the truth.
YOU WROTE:
If what he preached was true (that is: what the Bible really says) then no matter how evil he may have been, that
would not change what the Bible says, the Truth would still be the truth (not your kind of truth, but REAL Truth).
REPLY:
The REAL Truth is that your bible is flawed. It is not inspired by any god worth worshipping. It represents an
EVIL god that should only be, if possible, ignored by any intelligent person. The REAL truth is that, even if
Armstrong did preach what was in the bible, he would be no better than any other religious con-man. The book is a fairy tale book. Talking asses, talking snakes, dead people crawling out of graves, the Sun standing still, the moon producing its own light, virgin births, people walking on water, water turning into wine, a fish swallowing a man and the man lives for three days, etc. No that's not Grimm's Fairy Tales, its your bible. So what criteria do you use to judge that Grimm's fairy tales is not true but your bible is god's word? I would suggest that you use that same criteria on ALL books purporting to be "from" a "god."
MY RESPONSE:
Oh, Oh. I do believe we hit a nerve with that one. Well, the only EVIL GOD is the one that you follow, but, unfortunately you don't recognize him either. You yourself have admitted that this world couldn't have come about just by accident. That there had to be some kind of intelligent mind behind it all (hurray! at least one thing we agree on). So do you really think that a being with the intelligence and power to create a Universe wouldn't be able to do these minor (by comparison) feats???
You wanted your errors pointed out? Well, here's just one (of many):
ERROR: In your FAQ you say: "According to the Isaiah, the moon produces its own light. Isa. 13:10" and you repeat this above. Well here's what it really says: "13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine". Nothing there about the Moon producing it's own light.
YOU WROTE:
Well, God used men like that all the time.
REPLY:
Not a god with very high standards, I'm afraid. But, judging by the reported actions of this "god of the bible" I
would say he was choosing men that had the very same character flaws and lack of morality and ethics as he did.
MY RESPONSE:
Again you are showing your severe lack of understanding. Gods moral standards are far higher then any that yours (or mine) could ever be. In fact, the problem in this world today is that man has gotten away from the morals of God and is doing it his way, and that's why this world is in such a mess.
YOU WROTE:
and another was Saul (who was renamed Paul and wrote a good part of the New Testament),
REPLY:
Spare me your condescension, I know the bible as well as you, if not better. I do not reject it because I don't know it. I reject it because I DO know it.
MY RESPONSE:
Perhaps you do know more of what the Bible says then i do. But unlike some that can quote book, chapter and verse, I never claimed to be a Bible expert. But knowing what the Bible says and understanding what it says are not the same thing. If you really knew the Bible you wouldn't have this web site and i wouldn't be sending you this email.
YOU WROTE:
God (fortunately) doesn't think like us puny humans. He looks at things quite differently and knows what's best for us even when we don't.
REPLY:
Bullshit. You are merely making excuses for a god that does absolutely NOTHING for mankind. You can prove
nothing about your god. All you can do is make up things to try to explain his UNinvolvement with humanity. "God knows best" is the great cop-out for god not doing anything to help mankind. The opiate of the masses is religion. It helps though doesn't it? Take your daily dose of the bible drug and call me in the morning. Don't be afraid, you will never really die. And, you will also see all your dead loved ones again, some day. God will make all things right, some day. Just don't hold your breath. All the good things happen after you are dead. And, if they don't? Well, who is going to come back and kick the religious con-man's ass? It is the perfect scam that can even be put over on a seemingly intelligent person such as yourself. When it comes to religion, all sanity is left at the door.
MY RESPONSE:
(Oh, Oh, another nerve hit.)
Well, you'll have to fight that one out with God. And although i know you don't believe it, you'll get your chance.
YOU WROTE:
I think most parents would want to warn their children of dangers to their health,
REPLY:
I think, if your god were a real parent, he would be in jail for child abuse.
MY RESPONSE:
You never answered that one.
YOU WROTE:
If he didn't he wouldn't have any ministers.
REPLY:
So, this god of yours really has a communication problem, doesn't he? If this god had anything to communicate to mankind, he should step up to the microphone and tell everyone what he wants and not, supposedly use corrupt men and women to bring his message to his creation. Why should anyone with a brain accept that any man is ordained by this god to show us how to live? Where is the proof? Where are the credentials? Can every person that purports to be a "man of god" be believed? If he preaches what is in the bible, is that okay? Well, there are many different interpretations out of that good book which has led to many, many different religions and denominations. There is obviously not even agreement within the xCG churches. I remember going from one Worldwide Church of God church to another and hearing different interpretations. Who is right? Does each person get to chose his own church based on his own private interpretation of the bible? Its either that or there is only one true belief. That means that MOST people are going to be very wrong. You see, your religion is very shaky when you start to think about it. You can prove NOTHING rational about what you believe. You can't even get a prayer answered that can't be explained as a coincidence.
MY RESPONSE:
(Third hit nerve). Repeat: Again you are showing your severe lack of understanding. You're condemming something that you know nothing about. Fortunately, God does things his way instead of doing it your way (doing it your way... ugggh, what a horrible thought, The world would be in a even worst mess then it is now).
Anyway, God HAS communicated with man from the very beginning but man won't listen.
One's credentials (as you call it) is whether they understand and preach what the Bible REALLY says.
The fact that ALL churches have their own version of what the Bible says proves that ALL but perhaps ONE must be WRONG. If they're all different then ONLY ONE could be right. Which one (if any) is right? That one is the one that tries to preach and follow WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS.
YOU WROTE:
You don't suddenly become sinless just because you are preaching the Gospel. Although you are to try to be
perfect, battling sin is a life long fight.
REPLY:
It is amazing to see a, seemingly, intelligent human being sell his ability to reason and think rationally for the
promise of eternal life.
MY RESPONSE:
I'm amazed to see a, seemingly, intelligent human being reject an ETERNAL life full of happiness, joy, excitement, etc. for a VERY short life of pain, sorrows, misery, etc. plus a bit of what he thinks is pleasure.
YOU WROTE:
I don't know about your local minister but Mr. Armstrong never taught us to borrow money to pay tithes.
REPLY:
I have to believe that you were never there. I wonder if you ever attended a Worldwide Church of God church in the Herbert W. Armstrong era? I
begin to wonder if I am wrong and that you are not "seemingly intelligent." Herbie was the ringleader of those that
would wring the money out of all of us for the slightest reason and he did not hold back on the guilt trips or
reminding us that we were STEALING from god if we did not give MORE than we could afford. This was an
incredibly corrupt man, stealing from poor, old, sick and handicapped people. This man had absolutely no morals
at all. Money was his god.
MY RESPONSE:
And i repeat: I don't know about your local minister but Mr. Armstrong never taught us to borrow money to pay tithes.
YOU WROTE:
This, along with some of your other statements makes me wonder if you ever really listened to Herbert W.
Armstrong?
REPLY:
Are you kidding? I would have sold all I had and followed him out into the desert.
MY RESPONSE:
Again this is the same thing you said on your site. Couldn't think of anything different, huh?
YOU WROTE:
Did you ever read and understand what the Bible really says?
REPLY:
I understood and believed it with all my heart until I read what it really said and didn't try to explain things away
that I didn't like or agree with. You know what? You don't worship a god, you worship a book. And your book is
flawed. Your god is flawed. You worship a paper god. The best use of your god would be as toilet paper, and, it
wouldn't be very good at that.
MY RESPONSE:
???? If you understood what it said you would have understood what it said.
YOU WROTE:
Do you not know that the Bible does not say (nor did Mr. Armstrong) that you will receive "eternal torture"???
REPLY:
Torture, torment? Who gives a good shit? Not me. Sorry, not going to play any stupid bible games with you. All I have to do is discredit the book; I don't have to get into word translations and going back to the original
Greek/Hebrew, etc. Once the book is discredited, there is no point in arguing about words and verses.
MY RESPONSE:
You said that the Bible says we will receive eternal torture. It doesn't. Another one of your errors and twisting of the truth.
YOU WROTE:
As a result we have all kinds of Violence, Wars, Greed, Murders, Rapes, Thefts, Lies and dishonesty, Corrupt
Governments and Cooperation's, Child abuse, Wife abuse, and on and on it goes.
REPLY:
I guess you must be referring here to the results of people believing in religions. Religion: the curse on mankind.
MY RESPONSE:
No, I was referring to people that follow your kind of thinking.
YOU WROTE:
God says man does not know right from wrong, and man, are we ever proving that right!
REPLY:
Well, you certainly are with your religious idiocy.
MY RESPONSE:
Are you saying that man does know right from wrong? Then why can't we (mankind) agree on Abortion, Homosexuality, what is obscene, etc.? You know as well as i that what one man thinks is right another may think is wrong and then what that person thinks is OK still another will think is wrong. As a result, man cannot decide what is right or wrong. In other words, Man really doesn't know.
YOU WROTE:
By the way, i didn't see anything about prophecy on your site?
REPLY:
I can help you with that. Here it is: www.hwarmstrong.com /prophecy.htm
MY RESPONSE:
Don't know anything about it yourself, huh?
YOU WROTE:
You know prophecy. It's the proof of the Bible that no one can deny (unless they refuse to accept the facts
REPLY:
Maybe you would like to educate me on this "proof of the bible" since it is so obvious to you? Herbert Armstrong could only come up with ONE prophesy that he thought would prove the bible was true, he even had to plagiarize that one but it turned out that what he plagiarized wasn't even a true prophetic fulfillment and the whole booklet had to be recalled out of embarrassment. So educate me, prophecy boy. Give me those FACTS. Make sure it is something obvious so it can't be misinterpreted. I'm sure that, since this is the PROOF of the BIBLE, that it is something that everyone will be able to recognize and therefore be without excuse. I think that I will be waiting for a long time because I know you have absolutely nothing. I'm not as stupid as you think. I spent 25 years of my adult life believing all the moronic idiocy that you do.
I am now able to use my brain again, unlike yourself. You don't have a prayer, so to speak. Or, pray all you want;
your god is useless.
If prophesy is your best proof of the bible, you have very little to base your religion on.
MY RESPONSE:
ONE??? Anyway, prophecy involves looking at what the Bible prophecies will happen and then looking through recorded History to see if and when it happened. By doing this you will find that many prophecies were fulfilled just as it said, and in exact order. How did those people way back then know what would happen 10's, 100's and 1000's of years in the future? Today, with all of mans great knowledge, computers, and vast amount of information, we are lucky if we guess right on what's going to happen in a year or two.
But IF you have listened to Mr. Armstrong as you say you have then you know all this, and if you still won't believe it and what history records prove, as well as what is happening around you everyday (as prophesied) then nothing that i nor what anyone else says will convince you.
YOU WROTE:
may the God that you don't accept have mercy on your poor deceived soul.
REPLY:
Yeah, whatever.
(4)
Well, it's been a blast responding to your replies, i hope i didn't bruise your ego too badly but i'm sure it's big enough to survive.
As i've said before, we ALL are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. God gave us the right to chose and chose we will, be it right or wrong. If you hate Mr, Armstrong, if you don't believe what the Bible says, If you don't believe God, then that's your problem, not mine. I just don't like to see people spreading their hate in public and perhaps leading others down the same evil path.
Anyway, and i say this not to put you down or ridicule, but only out of concern, you should see your doctor about your Attitude and Anger problem. You do need help. A attitude of hate and anger can lead to very serious health problems.
Best of luck and may God forgive you.
--
Keith.
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
Hum....still sounds like hate to me. And sounds similar to what i read on your web site.
REPLY:
So? I can "hate" what I want whether it be spiders, snakes or religious con-men. I don't have your hateful, vengeful god threatening me if I display a little of the humanity that "IT," supposedly, created in me.
YOU WROTE:
if those "free Thinkers" decide to reject your version of the truth and to accept Gods truth, should they not be free to do so?
REPLY:
Do what the hell you want. I didn't write to you, you wrote to me. I haven't stopped anyone from thinking anything. I haven't put the "fear of god" into people so that they are afraid to think.
YOU WROTE:
Again this sounds like the same thing you said on your site.
REPLY:
Yes, what is on my site, written by me, is what I think. Is that confusing to you?
YOU WROTE:
Come on now, you know as well as i that you will not except anything (proof or otherwise) that goes contrary to your way of thinking.
REPLY:
To the contrary, I am very open to ideas. They have to be supported with proof though. That is where you are going to have a very big problem.
YOU WROTE:
So i wouldn't waste my time nor yours trying to do so.
Besides that, if i pointed out all the errors, misleading information, etc. the email would be so huge that your ISP (ISP stands for Internet Service Provider) would probably reject it.
REPLY:
I gave you your chance to put up or SHUT UP, weenie. You couldn't produce anything.
YOU WROTE:
So any thoughts contrary to Mr. Armstrong's beliefs would not be acceptable to him, and any thoughts contrary to your beliefs are not acceptable to you.
REPLY:
I don't understand what you are talking about. Do you?
YOU WROTE:
when one uses his brain (as you put it) and looks at it logically they are most likely to come to the conclusion that what is claimed on these sites is somewhat suspect.
REPLY:
Well, fine. Just move on then. There are millions of sites that I never go to. I don't write nasty letters to the pro-Armstrong sites. They don't present any challenge to me or my beliefs. I think you are just angry that your little tin god is getting knocked off his pedestal.
YOU WROTE:
But, as i said before, God (unlike you), is willing to forgive all sins, no matter how evil they are because he looks at what a person is Today, not what they used to be. But i know you can't understand that.
REPLY:
You have no proof of any of this. You just believe it. You hope it. You want it to be so bad that you are willing to accept it with no proof at all. I can understand that.
YOU WROTE:
Well, if you can't accept anything on those sites then how do you expect anyone to believe what's on yours?
REPLY:
I don't expect them to do anything. They can do what they want. They can believe what they want. I have nothing to gain by them believing anything on my site.
YOU WROTE:
Well, the only EVIL GOD is the one that you follow, but, unfortunately you don't recognize him either.
REPLY:
Oh, I get it. I must be following Satan because I tell the truth about your little tin, incestuous god: Herbert W. Armstrong. Can't you do any better than that? I've also proved that Your GOD in the Bible is evil, out of your own bible. Why not disprove that?
YOU WROTE:
So do you really think that a being with the intelligence and power to create a Universe wouldn't be able to do these minor (by comparison) feats???
REPLY:
Well, certainly IT could. But don't you think that a god that could create a Universe could think of a better way to communicate with his creation other than an error filled book? I would.
YOU WROTE:
Well here's what it really says: "13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine". Nothing there about the Moon producing it's own light.
REPLY:
Ridiculous. The verse plainly says that the light is "her" light. The writer of the verse obviously thought that the moon generated its own light and the light was "hers" to stop generating if she wanted to. Out of all the goofy verses in the bible, and the 40+ verses on the God of the Bible page, that is the one that you are going to stick up for? You are pathetic.
YOU WROTE:
Gods moral standards are far higher then any that yours (or mine) could ever be.
REPLY:
I guess we should all think as god does and take away all women's rights, degrade handicapped people, sanction slavery, kill millions of people, etc. Yeah, we should all be like the bible god. Such high moral standards.
YOU WROTE:
But knowing what the Bible says and understanding what it says are not the same thing.
REPLY:
Ah, there is the problem. You understand but I don't.
No. You accept without proof; I don't. You call that "understanding." I call it idiocy.
YOU WROTE:
And although i know you don't believe it, you'll get your chance.
REPLY:
I don't want a "chance." I want nothing to do with your imaginary god.
YOU WROTE:
And i repeat: I don't know about your local minister but Mr. Armstrong never taught us to borrow money to pay tithes.
REPLY:
I repeat: You were never there, then. Armstrong was always trying to Strongarm money out of us. Read the letters that he sent out to the members. Numerous times he told us to take out loans for special offering and special needs of the Work. If you are to take out a loan for a special offering, how much more important would it be to pay your Tithes? Hmmmmmm???? Tithes were always more important than offerings. I really don't think you were ever there. I wonder how old you are and how long you have been a member?
YOU WROTE:
Again this is the same thing you said on your site. Couldn't think of anything different, huh?
REPLY:
I put what I thought on the site, why do I have to keep coming up with new thoughts for every mindless idiot that comes along?
YOU WROTE:
You're condemming something that you know nothing about.
REPLY:
I'm condemning it because I do know something about it.
YOU WROTE:
???? If you understood what it said you would have understood what it said.
REPLY:
I understood it just like you think you do. Then I started using my brain again.
YOU WROTE:
The fact that ALL churches have their own version of what the Bible says proves that ALL but perhaps ONE must be WRONG. If they're all different then ONLY ONE could be right. Which one (if any) is right? That one is the one that tries to preach and follow WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS.
REPLY:
If that is true, then you must examine every single one to find the one that is most correct. You had better get busy. You can't stop just because you have found what you THINK is correct. You must eliminate all of the others. And you can't just do that with the Bible, you must examine every other possible religion too. You can't just assume that Christianity is THE true religion just because it appeals to you.
YOU WROTE:
But IF you have listened to Mr. Armstrong as you say you have then you know all this, and if you still won't believe it and what history records prove, as well as what is happening around you everyday (as prophesied) then nothing that i nor what anyone else says will convince you.
REPLY:
Just what I thought: Not a single damn prophesy. You had your chance to convince me and save me from eternal death and you were impotent, just like your god.
YOU WROTE:
You said that the Bible says we will receive eternal torture. It doesn't. Another one of your errors and twisting of the truth.
REPLY:
Torture, torment? Who gives a good shit? Not me. Sorry, not going to play any stupid bible games with you. All I have to do is discredit the book; I don't have to get into word translations and going back to the original Greek/Hebrew, etc. Once the book is discredited, there is no point in arguing about words and verses.
YOU WROTE:
Are you saying that man does know right from wrong? Then why can't we (mankind) agree on Abortion, Homosexuality, what is obscene, etc.?
REPLY:
Yes, man can very well know right from wrong. We can't agree because you and your kind want to filter everything through your fairy tale book and other unproven beliefs. That is why I said that man is cursed with religions.
YOU WROTE:
Don't know anything about it yourself, huh?
REPLY:
Let's see: I'll bet you are about 12 or 13 years old. Your grammar is terrible. Your spelling is terrible. And, you have not matured enough to think rationally.
YOU WROTE:
How did those people way back then know what would happen 10's, 100's and 1000's of years in the future?
REPLY:
They did it the same way Nostradamus did it and the same way Astrologers tell your horoscope today. They make the "prophesy" so vague that those that want to believe it can put their own interpretations to it. Or the bible "scribes" write the "so-called" prophesy after the events have already happened. The claims of fulfilled predictions are either gross exaggerations or outright lies. Fulfilled "prophesies" can be condensed down to five general categories: Vagueness, forced fulfillments, post-dated predictions, non-prophesies and chance fulfillments.
YOU WROTE:
But IF you have listened to Mr. Armstrong as you say you have then you know all this, and if you still won't believe it and what history records prove, as well as what is happening around you everyday (as prophesied) then nothing that i nor what anyone else says will convince you
REPLY:
That's right. Now go play somewhere else.
YOU WROTE:
Well, it's been a blast responding to your replies
REPLY:
I can just imagine. You are quite an insufferable, obnoxious, boring smartass and I have given you a forum to display the fool that you are. You "think" you have answers to everything but you are just displaying your ignorance for all to see. Well, the fun ends here. I have better things to do with my time than suffer a fool. Don't bother writing again.
Editor.
And as far as your "Free Thinking" goes, well man has been practicing that for
1000's of years and where has it got him? As a result we have all kinds of Violence, Wars, Greed, Murders, Rapes, Thefts, Lies and dishonesty, Corrupt Governments and Cooperation's, Child abuse, Wife abuse, and on and on it goes. So much for your "Free Thinking" society. God says man does not know right from wrong, and man, are we ever proving that right!
Keith,
You are so deep into religious drug addiction and a frenzy of unreality.
What has free thinking gotten us? It has gotten us medicine, antibiotics, longer lives, cars, planes, electricity, computers, education, knowledge, streets, sanitation, air conditioning and heat, industry and technology.
ALL of which religion has fought against and condemned. Then religion turns around and "uses" the products of free thinking to deceive even more people.
You want violence, wars, greed, murder, rapes, etc? Then read your own insane bible. The bible is saturated with "gods" commands to commit these very acts. The bible "guarantees" violence, wars, murders, baby-killing, genocide, etc. More humans have been killed, butchered, tortured and massacred in the name of "god," than all other reasons combined.
Child abuse? Why don't you follow "gods" biblical commands about child rearing and see how long you stay out of jail, or prison? The bible even commands you to stone your child to death.
Wife abuse? All a man had to do was rape your teenage daughter -- and according to the very commands of "god almighty" -- the rapist had the legal right to "buy" your daughter and there was nothing you could do about it. And according to your bible-god, beating your wife senseless was perfectly, totally legal. Your god authorized and condoned beating women senseless.
Your god commanded the deaths of women, children, the old, and even babies. Your god "commanded" this, as well as "commanding" genocide of every nation. And your god never gave them a chance.
But there's something I bet you never thought of, my deceived christian "friend." You are not an Israelite, the very god you worship would have commanded your own death, you wife's, your children's, parents, grandparents, babies and everyone you know and love.
If you had lived at that time, the god you worship would have "commanded" the slaughter of you and all of your loved ones including your babies. And your god would have commanded your deaths -- without mercy.
You worship an insane god who makes insane commands and wrote an insane bible. Your god even proclaims that raw cows milk is "clean" and fit for human consumption -- but it was free thinking that discovered that raw cows milk can "kill" you -- and it was free thinking that solved a lethal problem that your god said didn't even exist....
What the ancient writers didn't know, the god they created couldn't know either.
Religion is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated in history.
JimV
Dear Editor,
Just read the latest entries on the PT and I wanted to say to Keith - where have you been and how long were you in the Worldwide Church of God?
My parents came into Worldwide Church of God in 1971, but my dad had been sending money in for about 10 years before that - despite having to pay alimony and child support, AND having a "second" family.
If you would go back and read thru nearly all of Herbert W. Armstrong's member/co-worker letters, he is Always Asking for Money!!! He blames the membership, in his letters, for the church not being ready (for Christ to return) because they're not "supporting him enough" (financially)! He says if you don't do your part you are in danger of losing out on eternal life, not going to the place of safety and being faced with the lake of fire. Many of his letters talk about this.
Some of his letters are more "subtle" than others, and some are downright threatening! In several letters, he even wants people to take out loans to support the work - while STILL continuing to send in tithes, holy day offerings, offerings, etc! He wanted people to "borrow" any amount they could, $100, $500, $1,000 and more. I wonder how many poor fools thru the years did just that!?!
He even laid out the guilt trips to encourage older members (who should have left THEIR kids an inheritance) to "donate" their farms and savings to the church. You know - for that last push before Christ returns! And many did. Some regretted it later and tried to get the situation resolved, but basically the church said Tough Shit!
Here's a website I recently came across that has many of Herbert W. Armstrong's letters:
http://hoselton.net/religion/hwa/coworker/
I don't know that ALL letters are there, and I've just started reading some of them myself, but early on he was begging for money AND committing to projects without a budget. Just planning to do what the hell he wanted (in the name of Christ) and expecting the members/coworkers to pick up the tab for his vanity.
Vanity - the thing he accused women most of - HE was guilty of himself! It was his own vanity and self importance that made him want to get on Bigger and Better stations, and then move to Hollywood where things cost more.
Now for the "borrowing" to pay tithes. I'm sure many people have done just that, because we were told to PAY OUR TITHES OR BE IN DANGER OF THE LAKE OF FIRE!!! (Sorry for all the caps, Editor). We were told to tithe first, no matter what other responsibilities and prior commitments we may have had.
Just a few short weeks before my husband and I got married in 1984, he was fired from the largest sheet metal shop (union) in Kansas City because he told them about the upcoming holy days, not working on Saturday anymore, and the Feast. He even wondered if we should call off the wedding, but invitations had been mailed, things bought. I said NO WAY. Besides, I thought GOD WOULD PROVIDE a better job for him - you know - for obeying God. Ha!
For 8 years, he basically worked either between the fall feasts, or just worked for several weeks or months at this or that sheet metal shop (working off the s.m. list). Sometimes work was fairly steady, other times it was very off and on. I had a full time job which I literally HATED, and felt trapped to not quit, because I had seniority there and did not want to risk job problems with the holy days elsewhere. As a result of this, our first 8 years of marriage we were literally living on the edge. By the time our 3rd tithe year came around, we were living in a new (unfinished) house my FIL had built. Our taxes went way up (which at that time we did not protest, since then, we do) which made our house payment a lot more! Plus, we had bought a new car a year earlier, figuring we could "afford it".
But, being the good, stupid, worldwiders we were, we paid our tithes first! Where did this leave us? We had to let the car go back - luckily we went back to the dealer and explained we were having financial problems and they "bought" the car back and our loan was paid off. That was one relief. But the house payment was still way up there, and by then jobs were really on and off with my husband. He ended up buying a crappy car from a friend of his mom and working in a machine shop - NOT union, WAY LESS pay. Still not enough to help us. At that time, we didn't have computers, big screen TVs, or toys putting us "in debt". We even tried to sell our house, but no luck, so we took it off the market. We ended up putting 2 house payments on MasterCard (in order to pay our 1st, 2nd and 3rd tithe FIRST), which took us MONTHS to recover from! I finally told my mom our situation, and she knew of some other third tithe incidents she told me about. We had two ministers in our area, and we counseled with Ted Johnston. I name him here because he is one of the FEW ministers I really liked and had any respect for. He told us we shouldn't borrow to pay third tithe, and if we couldn't afford it, we shouldn't pay it. If we got in a situation where we could afford it, then we should pay it again at that time. However, we got past our third tithe year before we were "caught up", so we did not resume third tithing. This happened about halfway thru our third tithe year.
BUT, this did not mean our tithing problems were over. I do the paperwork, and many times utility bills would be paid late (which costs more and makes your credit look bad) due to tithing "just" 1st and 2nd. Many times I had to "borrow" from 2nd tithe and pay it back a few weeks later to still make our house payment. I had to have a replacement car for our Honda we let go back. It ended up being a piece of shit (as we were to find out later), and my husband was constantly working on that car.
Meanwhile, my husband and I both drank to "escape" our never ending problems. Of course, spending money on alcohol didn't help financial matters any, but the real cause of our financial problems was all the tithing (and holy day offerings too). And we weren't even contributing to any building funds or anything else!
After Herbie died, and Worldwide Church of God started relaxing many things, we didn't third tithe again. I don't even think we third tithed while in LCG, but I can't remember offhand. However, when we started going to PCG, the first thing I asked the visiting minister (we didn't have a "local" one) was about third tithe, because we had heard people at PCG talking about it and they seemed pretty hard core herbert. I was told yes, you gotta pay it regardless! Meaning it was "required for eternal life". But by then, I was having serious doubts about third tithe being applicable today, and had a much more relaxed attitude towards paying it (without fear).
By this time, we had 2 young kids, I was a stay at home mom. My husband had his "government" job by then and was making steady union wages once more. So I looked back on the "third tithe year" list I had made up, and discovered by the upcoming feast we should be in a third tithe year. (Later we found out the deacon in charge "started over" for counting of his third tithe years when he joined PCG - which meant HE got a couple years extra before being "burdened" again!)
So our third tithe year starts after the feast. We had a 5 month old baby at the time, and as God did NOT heal my breastfeeding problems, we had to buy formula. That gets expensive! We also had a new (S-10) truck payment for husband to get to work (which we got under real good terms). By then, I had a much better NICE used car. The first couple months of 3rd tithe weren't too bad, but it got to the point of borrowing from 2nd tithe and paying it back. Without counseling with any ministers (but I told my husband), I just started paying what 3rd tithe I could. AFTER paying NECESSARY bills, I would write out whatever amount I could for 3rd tithe. Some weeks, the church got no third tithe. I was waiting any time to hear from the church, but they never questioned us about it. Unfortunately, our last year there was a 3rd tithe year! What a bitch! On my husbands salary only we sent in several thousand that year! Man, what a waste!
So Keith, unless you were in Worldwide Church of God under Tkach only (or had a fabulous paying job and wouldn't suffer financially), Herbie and his guilt trip letters, as well as many articles in the GN, WWN and sermons, made one feel one must tithe regardless of any hardship it might cause!
Linda
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