Email To The Editor
(Page 69)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
I grew up in the church all my life, fortunately I left in 1991. I look back on my life growing up in the "true" church and realize how a tortured childhood I had. I was in constant fear of not getting married, having children, and much less graduating high school. I was always afraid that the world would end. Since leaving the so called church, I have married, have a child, and I have graduated with a ADN. To me the church was a way for bullies to pick on people. I had grown women telling me not to gossip, yet they made gossiping an art form. One of these ladies husband was a deacon in the church and the other ladies husband was a cheating and abusive man outside the church. Even though my father was a deacon, it seemed that I was a prime target to pick on. Especially due to the fact that I was a virgin and did not mess around with boys like their daughters did. Another abuse was a the SEP in Big Sandy, Tx. Some of my dorm-mates went to the boys side one night, and I did not tell on them
Hey, Sweetie,
Why waste your breath? If you disagree with the point of view as displayed on the Painful Truth web page, then go somewhere else. What is it to you? Do you feel threatened by us? Why attack the Editor with such passion just because he doesn't bow down to your opinion?
If you knew anything about us, where we've been, how we got to where we are today, maybe you'd be a little more tolerant. Lady, we've been through HELL! You want to talk about free will? Some of us (many of us, in fact) were brought into the cult as children. How could we join of our own free will when our parents brought us in at a young age? Didn't think about that, did you?
Go back to whatever it is that you do. You obviously don't belong here, and neither do your clueless opinions.
John B
Keith,
I read most of your email to the Editor of Painful Truth (it got quite long and repetitious after a while, so I didn't read it all), but you said something that I found curious. You said that God is willing to forgive incestuous rape.
Assuming the bible is true, then I would agree with you. But even assuming the bible is true, can you show me a single example of an apostle in the New Testament who raped his own daughter for ten years WHILE HE WAS AN APOSTLE? If you can show me a single example of that in the bible, then I might accept the idea that Herbert Armstrong was legit.
(And don't point to the example of Lot - if that story is true, it was the girls who instigated things (it's always the woman's fault, isn't it?). And that was a different god with a different set of values than the one in the New Testament.)
Also, I wonder if you have heard: There was a time when Christianity was in charge of the Western World, when Christianity ruled just about every country in Europe. Have you heard of that time? It was called THE DARK AGES.
Have a nice day.
John B
I am still reading lots of quotes from famous dudes. Here's two good ones from Ambrose Bierce's caustic book The Devil's Dictionary, published ca. 1911:
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."
"Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly worthless."
I find the second one especially instructive in light of the Acts of God page on this website. Imagine yourself in God's position, and you hear one of your "true servants" ask you this prayer: "Oh, God, I am such a rotten sinner, unworthy of any mercy or blessings from you. Please forgive me for always being such an ass. Oh, by the way, would you also please stop the laws of physics for the next two seconds and keep this airplane that I am on from crashing? And, if you could do that for me and I survive, would you also suspend your laws of personal responsibility and heal me of my syphilis? I am only asking you these things because I know you are merciful and will grant prayers to us humans, mere worms in your sight." How strongly would you be swayed to intervene on behalf of this mere worm, worthless in your sight, who continually screws up?
On the anniversary of our sad 9-11 day I watched a TV program that had interviews with people who survived the collapse of the World Trade Center. One man who was in the building and survived said "I guess God just wanted me to live". Right. And God wanted the other 2,800 people to die. I seem to remember some Bible verse about how time and chance happen to us all.
I don't know if Dan Barker is a famous dude or not, but I found a good quote from him, too: "Nothing fails like prayer."
Amen, brother.
Bill Fairchild
Douglas, Mass.
I'm Andy from WI.
Don't you think you're just deceived? Like the bible says about God's church in the end time? (laeodicean)
Andy:)Just Curious
Maybe WCG is not God's called. Then who is? I attended in WI from 71 to 89 when I turned 18 and when the church started to turn. I bet most of you at least had a great wholesome time in YOU?!
REPLY:
Keep reading The Painful Truth and you'll find the answers to your questions.
Editor
REPLY:
It's all a matter of opinion.
Andy
REPLY:
No.Its a matter of what is truth and what is NOT truth. Your opinion or my opinion do not matter.REPLY:
It's a matter of FAITH. AND OPINION. how do you know you're right? or how do i know i'm right?
REPLY:
Truth cannot be based on FAITH.
Faith accepts things as being true without any PROOF. We can't be 100% sure who is right but we can be sure that a person who can prove what he believes is using his brain and the person that relies on Faith is not using his brain. I could say that I accept Casper the Ghost as my savior because I have faith in Him. That doesn't prove that there is a Casper or that He has the power to save any more than a belief in Jesus proves that he exists or ever existed.
Opinion and Faith do not matter a whit if you are truly seeking Truth. In fact, you have to disregard Opinion and Faith if you are seeking Truth.
Editor
In reply to a previous message:
It is a matter of control. Man will try to control other people as long as God is not a part of his life. People do that by trying to change the way that others think. And if they can't control a person they will condemn them.
The freedom is think for yourself is taught in the Bible by the way. That is why I do not care what the Armstrong's have done or are doing. It is simply not my job to police them. Because they do not control me nor does anyone else.
God does not look at a person's sins; he looks at their belief. I have seen how the Bible works. If it did not work for me we would be having a different conversation.
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
If it did not work for me we would be having a different conversation.REPLY:
Whatever.
It is up to you to select your own drugs and decide which work best for you. Believe what you want. I am not trying to convert you to anything. I put the facts out there for you and you can do with them as you please. I wonder what it would take for some of you true believers to actually answer some of my questions? But that would require that you confront your beliefs and that is too disturbing for you.Now, let's go back to where we were before YOU started writing to me. Now, you wait for ME to write to you.
Editor
This is intended for the editor of the Painful Truth. I am posting it on other forums only because I would like my questions answered from a variety of viewpoints. My opinion is obviously in the questions. I apologize without reservation for any distress that I might seemingly be trying to cause.)
Dear Editor:
First and foremost, I would like to thank you for your exceptionally comprehensive archive. Preserving what went wrong and why with this religious movement is an important achievement. Your pages have both carry the mail and holy grail aspects to it. This is what a piece of literature should do. Websites are interactive literature to a certain extent. Unlike a regulation chunk of historical literature, this evolves and must be massaged as events take place. You deserve some sort of living history award.
You are defying the law that history is written by the victors. At least in this time and in this place, history can be written by the demonstrable losers. I am not sure that will always be the case.
The Radio Church of God seems to have been one of those odd incidents of pathology wherein no one won. Some people had more power than others, but no one won. HWA is dead and the worms have eaten him. For all of his partying and high times, he seems to have been a miserable wretch of a person. Nothing ever seems to have made this man happy. Worldwide doesn't seem to be very happy with itself. The leadership of Worldwide hates its own followers. I'm sure that if Joe Jr. could just close the doors and cash out, he would.
I have some very uncomfortable questions to ask. I am hoping that you or the other people that read this forum will give me valid answers. By valid, I mean the Plain Truth as you know it. I am drilling to hit a nerve here.
Question One: Was HWA insane or evil? He can be both insane and evil. He can be neither insane nor evil.
Question Two: Did HWA buy what he was selling? He did let Dick and Loma drop dead before his eyes. Dick wasn't instantly killed in a car accident. Dick lingered on. By HWA's own account, he had Dick transferred to another hospital. The most cynical reading of the Radio Church of God's history says that HWA and Dick got into religion for the money. Most of these accounts are attributed to Loma. When Loma got sick, HWA asked for prayers from his followers. When Loma died, he thundered down accusations to his flock about how they were lacking in faith-that their lack of faith had actually caused his wife's death. How evil. How maniacal. HWA seems to have a long-standing belief in faith healing and the power of prayer. Or he was a total con-man from the onset.
Question Three: Is Garner Ted Armstrong insane? The man is close to 70 years old. (Correct me if I am wrong.) His life has been an entire waste of time. Perhaps most of us can say that about our own lives, and then have a nice laugh about it. But Garner Ted Armstrong is a predator. He might have been a good used car salesman, or something useful. Garner Ted Armstrong has no works. He knows his father raped his sister-not once, not twice, but rather methodically, sometimes by force over the course of ten years. He knows that his father plagiarized most of his own writings. No living person is more intimate with HWA than Garner Ted Armstrong. What sane person would keep preaching a doctrine that he knows is wrong? My brother-in-law's opinion is that Garner Ted Armstrong keeps at it because it is the only thing Garner Ted Armstrong knows how to do. Garner Ted Armstrong is well past retirement age. Why does he keep at it? Is he broke?
Question Four: How many people are still involved in the cult? Worldwide states that it has 30K members. Nonsense. They would be lucky to have one third of that number. How many people are in LCG, UCG and PCG?
Question Five: Who is watching LCG or PCG or Garner Ted Armstrong's television programs? Other than me, that is. PCG's Key of David is an eyesore of a television program. Rocky is visibly reading his lines-not off a cue card nor a teleprompter, but rather reading them from the printed out pile of garbage he has before him. Garner Ted Armstrong's show is somewhat still amusing. Garner's voice is faltering. He shakes. He averts his eyes from the camera. Perhaps this is the result of long-term ETOH abuse? LCG has the best program. It's mostly Ames. Him and the good Doctor are smooth and suave and very media-savvy. But they just seem to be running through their sermons as fast as they can. Do these guys have an urgent golf game to get to? Ames and the Doctor always look like they need to take a piss RIGHT NOW. Is the end of the world immediately at hand? These idiots couldn't convince me if they tried. And they don't seem to be trying. You may read in here what you like. I have to hunt down the CoG shows. Who are they trying to recruit at 4:00 AM? What is the purpose of these television programs?
Question Six: How old are the remaining cult members? It is my assumption that the median age has to be about 55. The cult started in the 40s and came to a crashing halt in the late 80s. Even a younger member has to be in his or her late 40s. Again, please correct me if I am wrong.
I have asked enough questions. I hope I have not wasted your time nor intensely aggravated your valid prejudices.
May I say, in closing, that everyone I have met in relation to this subject has turned out to be a decent, noble person. HWA seems to have been a piece of work. The followers of HWA's dogma have thus far turned out to be wonderful, forthcoming and honest people. These people are or were mind-numbed God zombies, right? Aren't these people evil cult members? They just seem like nice folks to me.
Sincerely,
Mark
REPLY:
Mark,
Thanks for your message and remarks. You are not causing any distress. I'm not sure which other websites you may be sending to though.
YOU WROTE:
You are defying the law that history is written by the victors. At least in this time and in this place, history can be written by the demonstrable losers.
REPLY:
I have to disagree with you. We who have escaped the cult are winners. The losers are the ones that are still trapped by the cult or by their own insatiable desire for power and money.
YOU WROTE:
The leadership of Worldwide hates its own followers.
REPLY:
I don't think they hate them any more than a farmer hates his sheep. Sheep are useful to the farmer. The farmer will treat the sheep just as well as he has to so that they will produce for him. The farmer also does not want to get too attached to his sheep, so it doesn't hurt him emotionally when he has to shear them or slaughter them.
YOU WROTE:
I'm sure that if Joe Jr. could just close the doors and cash out, he would.
REPLY:
Maybe. But, where in this whole world would he get to feel so important?
YOU WROTE:
Question One: Was HWA insane or evil?
REPLY:
I think the book "People of the Lie" by by M. Scott Peck MD, so very exactly nails HWA for what he really was. He was sane and evil.
Page 129 "Evil people would be distinguished by these traits:
a) Consistent destructive, scapegoating behavior, which may often be quite subtle
b) Excessive, albeit usually covert, intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury
c) Pronounced concern with a public image and self-image of respectability, contributing to a stability of lifestyle but also to pretentiousness and denial of hateful feelings or vengeful motives.
d) intellectual deviousness, with an increased likelihood of a mild schizophreniclike disturbance of thinking at times of stress."
See excerpts from the book at Worldwide Church of God: People of the Lie
YOU WROTE:
Question Two: Did HWA buy what he was selling? He did let Dick and Loma drop dead before his eyes.
REPLY:
In this regard, I think he believed it to the extent that it affected OTHER people. When it was his life on the line, he had the best doctors and nurses. This alone should label him as evil.
YOU WROTE:
Question Three: Is Garner Ted Armstrong insane?
REPLY:
No. He is as sane as you or I. He is simply a user. He sees an easy way to make money or take advantage of women, and he does it. That is not insane. It is unethical and immoral.
YOU WROTE:
Why does he keep at it? Is he broke?
REPLY:
I don't imagine that he has as much money as the other offshoots of Armstrongism. You might ask the same thing of Meredith, Flurry and the others who use religion to make money.
YOU WROTE:
Question Four: How many people are still involved in the cult?
REPLY:
I really have no idea. I only hope that the numbers continue to decline.
YOU WROTE:
Question Five: Who is watching LCG or PCG or Garner Ted Armstrong's television programs?
REPLY:
As the saying goes: "Even a blind squirrel will find some nuts."
YOU WROTE:
What is the purpose of these television programs?
REPLY:
They are trolling for the suckers that will believe what they are selling. Its like fishing; you throw the lure out there enough and, sooner or later, you will catch something.
YOU WROTE:
Question Six: How old are the remaining cult members?
REPLY:
No idea.
YOU WROTE:
Aren't these people evil cult members? They just seem like nice folks to me.
REPLY:
They are decent, nice folks, for the most part. They were looking for answers to the mystery of life and death and they got caught by some religious hucksters that told them what they wanted to hear. Lots of those still caught in the cult just cannot accept that they may have wasted a good part of their lives and too much money to a complete falsehood. Their minds just can't accept it. They don't want to read about it and they don't want to talk about it.
Editor
My mother sent me your link. It was interesting to hear a previous members view point. I attended WWCG for what seemed to be a life time. We finally broke free when my parents divorced in 1994. My father discovered the church when I was 8 years old. I am now 24. Our childhood was terrible. We were not allowed out of our house for any occasion but school and church. At the time I just thought my father was just being strict. Soon he started to hear voices, beat my family for no reason, wake us up in the middle of the night to clean the tub and was driven to a mental break down because he thought everyone was out to get him. The church convinced him that it was the drs fault for putting him on so much medication. I remember having nightmares about the end of the world and the Beast. Church taught hell and damnation and that we were going to be left behind. I have just recently dedicated my life to Christ. I will tell you that it is a totally different feeling than anything I experienced in WWCG. I see that I still have a bit of the WWCG's mentality because I became oddly defensive when I started to read your page. As you put it, it is "The Painful Truth".
I always wandered how people became a part of a cult. I thought they must be crazy or lost. Scary to think that it could happen to anyone.
I am happy to report that my entire family is no longer a part of WWCG.
Thanks for your time.
hb
Just an honest few questions for you here. I want to state up front that I am not in a confrontational mindset here; I'm just looking to clarify a few points in my skull. I consider myself an atheist, but I am open minded and as such I therefore try to consider all view points on the issue as a whole.
Ok, straight to it then (the following questions pertain to your FAQ page):
1. In your tenth bullet answer to question 14 (Q14:AB10, if you will), you state, in part: "I don't believe in evolution, either."
How does acceptance of evolution require belief? Isn't belief only required in the absence of evidence? Do you deny the empirical evidence of the evolutionary process as observed today? What about abiogenesis?
2. Also, on Q14:AB15 (again using the same standard), you state: "So, I come down to believing there probably at one time was a God, but one that is not communicating with me or anyone else." Also, prior to that you state that your Deistic mind perceives "god" as "Probably sitting in a tavern somewhere, drinking beer and pulling wings off of flies."
Is it your contention, then, that a "God" created the Earth (and Universe), but then grew weary and/or bored of his creation and decided to head on over to the cosmic equivalent of Joe's bar to tip a few and contemplate his next move? Does it seem logical to you that "He" would go through all of that trouble only to abandon it in the end? And if so, why? What was the causal factor in "Him" becoming depressed enough to head on over to Cosmic Joe's Bar in the first place? Furthermore, what does "He" now do with the deceased? Does "He" allow some people into "heaven" while denying others? And, if so, on what basis? Does the Son of Sam enjoy the same heavenly luxuries as the neighborhood baker? If so, why? If not, why not? What's the criteria, and how do we humans know what that criteria is? By what "guide" do you "teach" morality?
My point is: why believe in ANY "God"? What's the significance? What's the penalty for not believing, and what's the reward for believing, as you see it? And, if the babble has it all wrong, who's to be faulted for not believing in the first place? Don't you see the illogic here?
v/r, JJ
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
How does acceptance of evolution require belief? Isn't belief only required in the absence of evidence? Do you deny the empirical evidence of the evolutionary process as observed today? What about abiogenesis?REPLY:
Let's put it this way: I have not been convinced that the theory of evolution accounts for life as we see it today. I may be wrong. Who cares? I don't. I am open to proof that we are the result of evolution. I just don't care enough to spend a lot of time trying to find out. What difference does it make to me, in the long run, if I believe in it or not? Doesn't change anything. I'd rather read a good book, take a walk and watch the leaves fall or play a video game.YOU WROTE:
Is it your contention, then, that a "God" created the Earth (and Universe), but then grew weary and/or bored of his creation and decided to head on over to the cosmic equivalent of Joe's bar to tip a few and contemplate his next move?REPLY:
Well, that is what I said, although I don't know if IT is contemplating IT's next move or not.YOU WROTE:
Does it seem logical to you that "He" would go through all of that trouble only to abandon it in the end? And if so, why? Etc.......REPLY:
Because this "god" is in Seventh Grade in "God Middle School" and we are his science experiment that he has grown bored with.YOU WROTE:
why believe in ANY "God"?REPLY:
Just because my mind cannot accept the orderliness and beauty of the Universe and our little planet without a creator god.YOU WROTE:
............Don't you see the illogic here?REPLY:
I'm glad that you are happy in your Atheism. I'm not that far away from it myself. You have accepted evolution as your answer. I can't. That doesn't mean that I believe in an afterlife or in a god that is doing anything for mankind. Your being willing to accept that the whole complexity of life on earth came about by evolution is as much a faith as those who believe in the bible. I don't believe in the Bible or in Evolution. That means there must be some other explanation but I don't have it and I'm not wasting any more of my life trying to figure it out.So what is your problem, anyhow?
Editor
Hi,
I have tried several times to email you but my mail keeps coming back saying that it cannot be delivered. I thought I'd try one more time.
I am really amazed at how many people still believe that it doesn't matter what men do to them as long as it is done in the name of ''truth''. I remember that we got many sermons in wcg concerning how everybody else was deceived and the preachers of other churches were the main deceivers. These preacher's faults were not covered up nor were the falsehoods they taught merely ''mistakes''. Yet, we hear people say all the time...''Well, nobody's perfect, everybody makes mistakes.''.
Yet, some of the ''mistakes'' hwa and the wcg made were far more horrendous than the ''mistakes'' that most of the Protestant preachers ever made. Yet, they were wrong and we were right. Why? I guess we had the one man that God was using.. regardless of the sorry evil man that he was.
I've heard it all...just about. I remember hearing people say that they didn't care what hq did with the money. When it left their hand, it wasn't their responsibility anymore. Crap !. What a crock. That was just the kind of attitude that wcg promoted.
I dare anyone who defends hwa to go back and review his old membership letters and if they can still defend him, then they deserve him. That's all I have to say.
Thanks for the PT site. I visit often.
Leigh
Hello all! Three questions:
One: Clearly, this website has its costs. The new format is superb. Other than Amazon, is there a way to make a contribution directly?
Two: I had been thinking of and was working toward compiling a book of stories from ex-members. The response was minimal, and half of the people that I received stories from back in 1999 can no longer be contacted. Some of the stories were submitted anonymously and some asked that their stories not be published after they had submitted them to me. I decided at that time that if I indeed continued to receive input from folks, I encourage them to self-publish on this website.
Add a move for us, the adoption of two boys, and my finishing a degree, and the fact that there were only about five stories that I could have used, and it was not exactly a heartening prospect. So I decided to volunteer with Steve Hassan's organization (www.freedomofmind.org ) and have assisted Steve with one very successful cult exit, which was a six month process.
At any rate, I was wondering if those former editors of the Ambassador Report (Mary Jones, Len Zola, Bob Gerringer, and others) would be interested in using their research to compile a book. I really think that it would be read by a number of people, and not just former members. After John Trechak's death, who, by the way, was very gracious and helpful to me, I never pursued that avenue of possibility. Any way that those folks might be contacted?
And perhaps the self-publishing of the Ambassador Report on this website is more than helpful enough. It is not only well-written material, but it is well documented and was/is extraordinarily helpful for those still in the claws of the cult.
So...have the previous editors at the Ambassador Report ever considered compiling its research into book form? I would love to volunteer my time as a part of that process. Or I am willing to help get this site some publicity. Whatever I have hoped to do, it is already being done by others, and I would rather join in the synergy of the process as opposed to starting yet a whole new "splinter" (smirk).
Steve Hassan and I have had conversations about Worldwide, and he has wanted me to write up a synopsis for the site on the current state of the church, especially now that evangelicals are embracing them with seemingly open arms. I gave him the link to this site instead, mostly because I think that my arguments have been said just as well by other folks here on this site.
My argument is and has always been this: Why should we expect anything different from guys who were themselves schooled in mind control tactics and effectively used them? When these "reformers" decide to dissolve the church and use any and all assets (including their own accounts) for therapy for former members, I might decide to take them seriously.
Again, I appreciate your work, and I am sure that I speak for quite a number.
Three: I really miss all of the hwarmstrong.com graphics, especially Shagadelic Herb complete with Hermes pouch and the Grave Cam. Any way of seeing all of that again? I would love to be able to get myself disfellowshipped with the certificate suitable for framing.
Take care, Andie
REPLY:
Andie,
Nice to hear from you again.
YOU WROTE: One: Clearly, this website has its costs. The new format is superb. Other than Amazon, is there a way to make a contribution directly?
REPLY: Well, I have purposely avoided this since I started doing this years ago. Never wanted to even talk about accepting money for doing the site. Now I am on a fixed income and no longer have the extra funds to use for the site. Just today I saw another Amazon feature where people are allowed to donate, anonymously to different websites, through Amazon, using a credit card. If they change their minds within 30 days, they even get an automatic, no questions asked, refund by Amazon. All I want is to cover my costs so I am putting a limit on the amount that can be donated. Once the limit is reached, nobody can donate anymore. I'll give it a try and see how it works. I don't expect that too many will want to do it. Most WCG people are pretty tight with their money, especially after being bilked out of so much of it by the religious hucksters. I've realized that down through the years and have been doing this as a public service without any expectation of any reimbursement. Its just good to hear, every once in a while, that people are being helped by the site.
YOU WROTE: I was wondering if those former editors of the Ambassador Report (Mary Jones, Len Zola, Bob Gerringer, and others) would be interested in using their research to compile a book.
REPLY: As far as I know, they really don't want anything to do with anything like that. Someone else might know differently and, if they write to me, I will put them in touch with you.
YOU WROTE: Or I am willing to help get this site some publicity.
REPLY: I'll take all the publicity I can get. The site is mainly aimed at the xCGers though.
YOU WROTE: Three: I really miss all of the hwarmstrong.com graphics, especially Shagadelic Herb complete with Hermes pouch and the Grave Cam. Any way of seeing all of that again?
REPLY: The site has been transferred to the PT site. There is a link on the main page under Graveyard Church of God. It is no longer updated by the Caretaker but the humor is still alive and well.
Keep in touch.
Best Regards,
Editor
2 the Editor:
Once upon a time, a small group of human-like aliens came to visit Earth. They came from an Earth-like planet in a galaxy far, far away. Their job was to observe and report on human behavior.
They landed in the righteous, Christian land of the USA, settled their craft in the sacred land of Kansas amidst the sanctified corn, and from there they observed the world. They also used the Internet a lot.
They noticed that there was turmoil all over the world. They saw wars and cruelty everywhere. They saw murders, suicides, robberies, violence, corruption, perversion, religious hypocrisy, and political chicanery. Since this type of behavior was "alien" to them, they sought answers. Then they found one person who could relate the general feeling of most in our country.
1st Alien: Why is there so much chaos on this planet and in this country?
Righteous Christian: There isn't, because we follow God and His word for our guidance.
2nd Alien: This, er "God," actually talks to you?
Righteous Christian: No, but we have a book that He gave us.
3rd Alien: So, this God tells you what He wants . . . in a book? Can't this God do His own talking?
Righteous Christian: He doesn't have to. We have His book.
1st Alien: So you're actually following a book?
Righteous Christian: Yes, but it's God's word to us.
2nd Alien: How do you know that?
Righteous Christian: He told us . . . in the book.
3rd Alien: So you've never met this God, and you just follow a book?
Righteous Christian: Yes, and we follow His book literally. Our holy book is called "The Bible."
So the aliens took the Bible and read it cover to cover. They read of the approval of wars and cruelty everywhere. They read of murders, suicides, robberies, violence, corruption, perversion, religious hypocrisy, and political chicanery. This confused them, so they asked the Righteous Christian if this Bible was the standard for the behavior of Earthlings?
"It is OUR standard," the aliens were told. "The Bible is our code and the ultimate word of God."
And so it came to pass that the aliens retired and spoke privately.
1st Alien: No wonder these Earthlings are so screwed up.
2nd Alien: Look what they've got for a reference. Next thing we know is that they'll probably try and crucify us too.
3rd Alien: Agreed. Let's get the hell outa here.
Just a thot or 2. JohnO.
I too came out of a cult, Jehovah's Witnesses (which I think I have been told had some connection with WCG way back .. maybe just the same father, the liar).
I wandered in the void for over 10 years.
But I, unlike you, finally came into relationship with the True God. Oh there is a God allright ... He is wonderful, Faithful, Compassionate, Just & Merciful and He is very very real.
Perhaps someday you can ask Him about these things. I hope so.
In Love and Peace,
Nancy
REPLY:
YOU WROTE:
But I, unlike you, finally came into relationship with the True God. Oh there is a God allright ... He is wonderful, Faithful, Compassionate, Just & Merciful and He is very very real.
Perhaps someday you can ask Him about these things. I hope so.
REPLY:
Well, heck........... The only thing I need then, is some proof. I guess I must be really close to finding this god since you know him so well and I'm sure you can fill in all the details for me and arrange an introduction.
Here I've been waiting all this time for someone to explain to me a loving, faithful, compassionate, etc. god, in light of my Acts of God page. I'll be looking forward to your explanations; or will they be excuses?
Editor
You still posting these e mails? If so Id like to respond by saying the Living church of GOD teaches the truth hwa always taught. Mr.Armstrong made mistakes,truer,but so did Peter.The truth is the truth regardless Randy
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Ok.
Prove it is the TRUTH without using the Bible, which is easily discredited. If you can't do it, then you are worshipping a book and the book is your god.Editor
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There are so many truths that are backed up by archaeological discoveries for example the moabite stone .........found in 1868 dates from 850 b.c. and mesha (king of moab) erected it. It tells of the wars of mesha of moab (with omri)and the edomites mentioned in Deut.2:24,Num.21:13,32:34-38,Jos.13:9-18,20:8&Jer.8:22and 2Kings 3:27
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YOU WROTE:
There are so many truths that are backed up by archaeological discoveries.....................REPLY:
So what? There are plenty of old and new books that have historical things in them. That doesn't make them "holy."How do you decide which books are holy and which ones are not holy?
I'll bet you don't believe in Santa Claus. Why not? He performs miracles, he is omnibenevolent, he is immortal, he is based on an actual historical figure, many millions have believed in him at one time or another. You have no problem believing a man walked on water, or rose from the dead, and floated in the clouds. You have no problem believing that an ass or a snake can have conversations with humans but you think it is ridiculous for Santa to slide down a chimney and give children toys. You believe in spirits and demons and devils but you can't believe that Santa lives at the North Pole. I'll bet you haven't even been to the North Pole to check it out. Why would this be more ridiculous than your beliefs out of your Bible?
Where is your evidence that any of your beliefs are true? All you have is your bible and it is not admissible as evidence because it is so easily discredited. I'm not going to get into any Bible quoting, pissing contest with you here. All I have to do is prove that ONE thing in the Bible is not true and it takes away all credibility that it would have as being "inspired" by a god. A perfect god could not inspire something that is imperfect. If you are interested in many proofs that the bible is not the word of any god, check out my Bibliolatry Page.
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I don't understand. If you have no interest in the Bible and what it says -why put out the stuff that you do ? Why should it matter to you ?
thanks
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I am interested in people having ALL the information so they can make informed decisions.
Why should it matter to you what I do?Editor
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Dear sir you need to counsel with a true minister of GOD and this torture in your mind would be lifted.But if you dont there is a very strong possibilty you will spend eternity in nonexistance ,not even in memory.
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YOU WROTE:
But if you dont there is a very strong possibilty you will spend eternity in nonexistance ,not even in memory.
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I would rather do that than spend eternity with the EVIL bible god.
If you can't offer any intelligent reasons for your belief, we have nothing to talk about. You are the one that is torturing me with your idiocy. Why can't your god find intelligent people to worship IT? You can't even spell correctly but you know what a god thinks?
Now, why don't you go play somewhere else?
Editor
Dear Sir,
Would it be possible to help me find out the name of the Filipina girls Herbert Armstrong took to the US (and/or Europe) to, I think, be his sex partners.
I need this information in that hope that this could help to open the eyes of a dear friend and her entire family.
I know it's a long shot but I read that Holly Ruiz (former wife of Enrique Ruiz) and also Albert J. Portune have some knowledge about this. Thank you very much.
Sincerely yours,
Pedro
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Pedro,
I will post your message on my email page, without your name and see if anyone has any information. I would not hold out a lot of hope for this, though.
Editor
Hi Editor,
In reading the recent email sent to you I just had to interject something. I used to attend services in Cherry Hill every Saturday. Talk about brainwashed, when someone was 'anointed' and died the minister actually said, and I quote, and anyone who went there will back this up..."Why didn't God heal them you ask? HE DID...THEY ARE HEALED! When they are resurrected they will have a new whole healthy body in God's glorious kingdom."
Huh? They "ARE healed?" That wasn't exactly what I thought it meant to be anointed to be healed. If someone died they STILL gave God an excuse. They said you had to "have faith" that God would heal you or He wouldn't...and apparently you needed ALOT of faith or you were screwed. How do you have faith that he'll heal you when he lets people die? And even when they died He got praise for their healing!!! When I think of the bullshit that I used to listen to and (embarrassingly now) actually believed, I'm so relieved that my brain finally kicked in and came back to reality. But I do have a question for you or anyone who may know the answer.....realizing that there is no god was relatively easy...pure logic and reason, but it's really hard for me to give up the belief that there is and was no Jesus. I know logically there couldn't be, but its hard to get it into my mind. Am I the only one?
Bill
To whom it may concern:
I was searching the web and found your site about how the Jews calculate their calendar. I found multiple references to several people in a very crude language.
I do not believe you know Jesus, and to say the least, I do not believe you will be happy to be with true Christians.
You are like your father the Devil and if you do not repent you are going to Hell.
Whoever reads this letter, this message is for you too. The Kingdom of God is made out of people who serve other people. You are in the wrong den.
Helen hnovela@ureach.com
I just received a sample copy of Freethought Today. Great paper!
Included was a booklet titled: "What They Said About Religion."
I would like to relay a few of the quotes:
"Religion is all bunk."--Thomas Edison
"The bible and the church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation." --Elizabeth Cady Stanton
"Why has a religious turn of mind always a tendency to narrow and harden the heart?"--Robert Burns
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child cannot be a true system."--Thomas Paine
"I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose." --Clarence Darrow
"If the bible said that Jonah swallowed the whale, I would believe it."
--William Jenning Bryan. (If herbie told us that, we'd believe it too.)
"The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world."--Bertrand Russell
But how are you going to impress these statements of great minds --exception:
William Jennings Bryan-- upon the little minds who adamantly still believe "There's a gold mine in the sky far away"?)
Alex
Hi Editor,
I read recently on letter section #69 where you said in part
...my mind cannot accept the orderliness and beauty
of the universe without a creator god.
I wondered about this after all the material you've posted about the god of the Christians. At the same time you are apparently siding with the same argument they make.
I then mused on the time awhile back when some asteroid broke up and its pieces smashed into the planet Jupiter. Then I thought of the viewings of galaxies in collision, the pock-marked surface of the moon, the evidence that an asteroid may have led to the dinosaur extinction. What about mutant births, disease epidemics, hurricanes, floods, droughts, earthquakes? Just how do these fit in with the alleged "orderliness and beauty"?
I guess your definition of that term is different than mine. Maybe you can help me understand better your comment.
I decided to make a Google search of the concept to find what other non-believers brighter than I have said about the idea. After 25 years as a brain-dead goon I have to really struggle to understand things outside my Armstrong indoctrination.
In my search I came upon an articulate atheist that was one from age 14. He certainly arrived at the decision without the baggage I bring to it. I am argumentative and angry. He is gentle and yet persuasive.
You can read his e-book, "Gentle Godlessness", here http://www.infide ls.org/library/modern/paul_obrien/gentle/index.shtml
I'm reading the book now and I would like to know what you think of it if you have time to read it.
Thanks.
Jim Baldwin (In the lonely world of atheism)
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YOU WROTE:
I wondered about this after all the material you've posted about the god of the Christians.At the same time you are apparently siding with the same argument they make.
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I've very clearly said that I don't believe in any god that cares about mankind, where do they argue that point?I didn't say that I believed in the god of the Christians or in any other humanly devised god. Until proved wrong, I theorize that there may have been a god that created the Universe and has basically kept hands off. It just makes more sense to me than evolution. I can tell you why I see flaws in the evolutionary theory and the Christian faith; can you explain to me the flaw in my theory?
YOU WROTE:
What about mutant births, disease epidemics, hurricanes, floods, droughts, earthquakes? Just how do these fit in with the alleged "orderliness and beauty"?REPLY:
Free will. Scientific Laws not being interfered with by any god.YOU WROTE:
I'm reading the book now and I would like to know what you think of it if you have time to read it.REPLY:
I have no problem with Atheists. I can see where they are coming from. I am willing to be converted. Give me some scientific proof. There is none. There is just as much faith in evolutionary beliefs or "proofs" as in belief in a loving god. They don't call it the "Theory" of Evolution without reason.I'm sorry but I don't' have time to read the book but I would be interested in proofs. I have read many evolutionary documents and I have given it a lot of thought; its not that I haven't looked for some proof. I'll admit that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. All I want is some proof that my non-sharp brain can accept. I should be pretty easy to convince, at least compared to a faithful Christian.
Editor
http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/believe.htm
Analyses the question: "Do you believe in evolution?"
Also discusses how we use the word 'believe' in different ways. Some things don't deserve belief, others don't require it.
Guy
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I'm sorry Guy, but this person saying that he "knows" evolution is true based on his observances is ridiculous. He sees evolution but I see adaptability. I too am a firm believer in Science. I still say that those who "believe" or "know" that evolution is responsible for all we see today have just as much faith as God worshippers. R. J. Riggins does not prove his point. I'm willing to "know" or "believe": give me some proof. His logic and his proof is flawed. Riggins "knows" electrons exist. I know they exist too. It is up to Riggins to show me how an electron evolved if that is part of his proof of evolution.
Why do evolution worshippers have such a mission to covert me to their beliefs? Why is it so incredible to have to say that we can't find the answers based on the evidence that we have? I say that evolutionists and god worshippers are both wrong, so I can't win with either side. That doesn't bother me because I don't really care.
Editor
Subject: on your christian website
hello hello. this is not hate mail. NOT hate mail. i would just like to respond to something you posted on the 'cult' page of you christian website. (please realise that i say this with the utmost respect for your religeon and your views.) you said that cult members fear and hate you (christians). that is entirely false. number one, we don't hate you. we hate some of the things your people did to us and members of other religeons. examplethe crusaides, the salem witch trials, the spanish inquisition, ect. but wouldn't that sort of thing give anyone a bad rap? it may be evident that a few extremeists do genuinely hate you. but there are extremeists in EVERY religeon. it's unfair for you to base your judgement on us based only on the opinions of a select few extremeists whose opinions do not represent that of the majority.
second, we do not fear you. we have never, do not, and will never. it is entirely unfair for you to be putting words in our mouths like this. there is absolutely no proof to support that claim.
lastly, i do hope you will post this on your site so that other christians will be able to see things in a different point of view. lets remember, that's always healthy for everyone.
-LeSighri
ps. just thought you might like to know, i'm a wiccan. also, feel free anyone to email me back about this. my adress is ******@hotmail.com bright blessings
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LeSighri,
I have given very specific instructions that people should read my FAQ page before sending me a message. This will save us a lot of time. You have not done this at all, since you think I am a Christian. Do it and then see if we have anything to discuss.
And don't write back unless you can use proper punctuation and spelling.
Editor
To Helen H. Gardner
In your piece on Men, Women & Gods, you present the quotation below from Henry Thomas Buckle, but you don't tell where it is in his work. It would help me a good deal to be able to find this without reading his collected works through, or even all of the History of Civilization in England! Can you tell me a more precise location for this quotation, book & chapter, or even page number?
Thank you very much.
Terry, Coe College
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Just for your information, if you would have read the title for the page, you would have seen that the book was written in 1885. I don't think she will be able to help you very much.
Editor
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