Email To The Editor
(Page 75)
(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)
Dear Sir:
Are you aware of any support groups/letters I can get into/get on their mailing list? I was in (a member) for 10 years. Or more.
Also, don't, please don't, take this wrong, but you seem kind of bitter (after reading your website). I am still attending a Sat. church (messianic) and got some big answers to prayer. There is hope outside of WWCOG.
I was so addicted to WWCOG that before I found the messianics I went to Living Church of God, and the United COG. They are both very controlling/cults!!!!!
Anyway, I hope you can get over your bitterness 'cause I'm still working on it. You see, my mom brought me up in the Christian Science church, then in college I went to the Church of Christ, then found my way (after 4 years) into WWCOG. My exand I were disfellowshipped out of the Church of Christ (for a stupid reason I won't discuss), and I was kicked-out of WWCOG for awhile 'cause I was having marital (big marital) problems and bothered the minister too much (phone calls). Yes, I went on to end up divorced, and I went through hell in WWCOG, but I still am a Bible reader and try to love God.
I think I know your pain. We all suffered a lot. What floors me is the fact that they're still in business! But if you can get beyond that, and see God as all-loving, etc. you can hopefully experience some healing (it's sure hard, isn't it?) I think those of us that had abusive parents ended up in WWCOG, 'cause we were so used to abuse & codependency. I mean, who would go to a church where you had to be screened? (I did) and all the other stuff we put up with?
Just let me know. I feel God really loves those a lot who were hurt by all this, and I still have bitterness myself, but it will hurt you, it doesn't hurt them, 'cause they don't DON'T CARE. They just care about themselves and getting $$. They really should have to account for all they did-but it won't happen in this life.
Marcy
REPLY:
Marcy,
People who had their lives irretrievably screwed up or even taken by a bunch of con-men have a right to be bitter if they want to be.
You don't need a support group for this, what you need is to face reality. Reality is that there is NO evidence of a god that cares about mankind. I know you say that you have had prayers answered, I thought that I did too. I had a many paged document of all my answered prayers. But, when you look at these things objectively, you will see that it is only time and chance or wishful thinking. It is also a matter of overlooking all the unanswered prayers, or making excuses for a non-answer by saying god's answer was 'no.' I have had just as many "prayers" "answered" since I became a non-believer as I did when I was a faithfully tithing, serving, bible studying, Sabbath keeping, believer. It doesn't make a bit of difference except that a non-believer gets to keep and use his own money as he wants. Life is much better. You get to "bless" yourself and believe me, it is the only way that you are going to be blessed except by chance or the intervention of some other human being.
YOU WROTE:
But if you can get beyond that, and see God as all-loving,REPLY:
This is merely wishful thinking. When you think about it, you will see that there is no evidence for this at all. Can you give me some proof? I have genuinely been looking for many years.YOU WROTE:
I feel God really loves those a lot who were hurt by all thisREPLY:
Yes, you feel this because you are a good person and you expect that there must be a god that would feel the same, but there is no indication of one. I challenge you to produce some evidence of a god that cares about mankind. I'm telling you that you can't do it.YOU WROTE:
I still have bitterness myself, but it will hurt you, it doesn't hurt them,REPLY:
I don't think you understand. I maintain the Painful Truth Website in order to educate the former members and present members as to the truth about their church. I hope that when they find out the truth, they will leave a church with such an evil past and as they educate themselves as to the truth about ALL religion, they will be freed from superstitious beliefs that make them slaves to other con-men. This "religion" business is all a grand hoax. None of these greasy con-men has a shred of evidence that what they are preaching has even the littlest bit of credibility to it. You have to have faith and faith means that you must believe without using your brain. Is that what a "god" wants from us? I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that.Don't be bitter, be skeptical. Question everything and you will be on your way to freedom from these bottom dwelling, blood sucking parasites who live off the work of others. They attach themselves to your neck and suck the blood and money and the joy of this life completely out of those who are cursed to have fallen into their spider webs. They replace these good things with a false, unprovable hope for a life after death. People are so afraid of dying that they will believe any slimy con-man that comes along that will give them a hope.
Good luck to you on your search for truth.
Editor
Dear "Editor":
I don't know your name....but, I feel I have to respond. Have you ever taken a chemistry class? How about 2 chemistry classes-organic, etc.? I was more or less feeling the same way you do, beforeBEFOREI took those classes. That finally convinced me. I had the darndest time-got a high A in both classes-studied 8 hours a day-even remembering all the stuff, how could it all not be designed? Can you manufacture even the slightest thing, from nothing, yourself?
When one is forced to get into the minutist, tiniest, teeniest, details I found that there was no way all this stuff just came together, and stays together. There is a plan, a creator, has to be, from the laws of chemistry/physics/biology to the way the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, every day, to the way the planets move, etc. There is a something out there, whether or not you want to believe in it or not!
Pardon the FrenchI know this life is cr*p, let's face it, but the test is what you're gonna make out of it, and if you can turn lemons into lemonade, etc. I have many reasons to be bitter, also. It says in the Bible that the rain falls on the UNJUST as well as the just, the good and the evil, all have one death, etc. That's just the way it is. The key is to get into how it all came about, and how to go with it, not against it.
IF there's only this life, and no God then I would believe that lying, cheating, stealing, etc. would be the norm and that since there's nothing to attain to later, and no rules, why not? Why not kill someone if they piss you off? Why not lie & cheat, others do? Why not do whatever it takes, there's no moral laws, etc.? Just be as ruthless as you can, to get ahead, and achieve your means. Well, obviously, even if one rejects God, the laws in this country are there, and I guess what I'm trying to say is, what's the point of living, then? Why not do whatever it takes, completely, to get ahead, and win, etc.? Well, there's things set in place that if you try to do that, you'll have setbacks, and punishment, even society's punishment, at the least.
As far as the financial stuff-I don't see how giving even just a little bit (a tithe, an offering) is going to hurt someone, 'cause if there's no God, well, the people who gave, they're a sucker, right? Well, who hasn't given money to church? You give it to God anyway! Those people that were taking it, they'll have to account for it, and they will have a much tougher judgement than you or I or anyone else could ever give them if they misappropriate it (which WWCOG did, I think). God promises many times that they'll have a tougher judgment.
For example, the minister that kicked me out for awhile (before I begged another minister & finally got reinstated) ended up getting terminal pancreatic cancer and died about a year after he did that to me. He was only in his 50's, early 50's. I begged God to right the situation, 'cause I really was DEVASTATED and hurt. I mean, when your husband beats the
out of you, and then the minister kicks you out....And, I believe God finally did something about that man, who kicked other people out and was very TOUGH and MEAN to people who weren't towing the line, or behaving exactly like he thought, or were'ent spiritual enough, etc. I believe God did finally put an END to WWCOG, and it's gone to other groups now, why?
Because they weren't loving and kind and understanding to their members, to you and me, and others. I have to NOT regret the time, money, etc. I put in, 'cause somehow I believe that's going to work toward good. God didn't put me in that, I guess I chose it myself. And, when people are flawed, when they've had a rough upbringing, etc. when they don't understand what God really is, then they get mixed up with the wrong groups. There are MANY MANY cults out there. Why God allows them, ask Him, not me.
The only answer I have is take a year off and go to Israel, do your own research, get over there, or watch the history channel and see how they're proving PROVING the veracity of those stories, etc. THE PREMISE that the Bible is wrong, flawed, etc. is the foundation, and if it is, then I resign from ever reading it again, but it isn't! It's the ONLY thing that we can put any faith into. I'm sorry Mr. Editor, but if you were to go live in Russia, find a corner where there's absolutely no religion, even there you will find hope, and people clinging to God. Because you don't make the rules, HE does. And it says that nothing can separate us from the love of God, not even if you were to go to the bottom of the ocean! And He says that those who reject HIM (Jesus) openly in this life, well, there's a tormenting place to go, forever. How could a loving God do that? I don't know, but He is s'posed to be perfect justice.
It is better to fall into line with Him now than to kick and kick, and kick, and fight Him and you'll eventually experience more heartache and all kinds of things. I know, I've been there. He will either deal with you or not and let you go your own way.
I believe He put me through WWCOG 'cause I wouldn't believe in a hell. He just let me go there, 'cause I couldn't believe Him. Now I do. Why fight Him? You will eventually come around, I believe, I hope, but not without a great deal of terrible things happening to bring you around to your senses. It's a terrible way to live, and by the way, I feel sad for your spouse/children. Can you honestly say they are doing better now that you've given up any hope in a God? You can only just hurt yourself so much, and then finally surrender. By the way, God doesn't expect you not to use your brain, He has one Himself. And, there isn't any ANY church that's perfect. They're all imperfect, 'cause we're all nutty! And, when you were a deacon, didn't you do the very best you could, sincerely? Well, don't delude yourself. I feel most ministers do the best they can, that they know how, and if they aren't, well, the Bible says they're under sin, then.
Marcy
REPLY:
Sorry, don't have time to respond to you point by point.
Show me a god that cares about mankind and I will believe.
Don't tell me about your "feelings." Don't tell me what you "believe." Don't tell me how you justify believing things with no evidence at all; I don't care.
Show me some proof.
Being of a Deist persuasion, you don't have to give me a lot of "proofs" of a creator god. I will accept that.
The problem you have is that you cannot prove an "involved" god other than in your imagination and in coincidence and in your magic book of fairy tales.
Now, don't be wasting your time writing me back until you have some proof for me.
Editor
You've been in the Worldwide Church of God for 21 years? That would mean you started in 1982. If you are 21 years old, then you were not aware of anything that was going on for the first few of those 21 years, and by 1992 things were rapidly changing as the Tkach administration turned the organization into a different, more mainstream direction (doctrinally).
I was in the Worldwide Church of God for 40 years, from the age of 4. We were not able to attend services regularly until I was 13, and from that time forward I became aware of quite a bit that was going on around me. Like you, I was a True Believer: I sincerely believed that Armstrong was God's apostle and his ministers were hand-picked by God himself. I saw many things that were not right, not fair, not true, or in any other way unexplained when they happened in "God's church", but I had been so thoroughly indoctrinated that it was the True Church that I brushed it aside. Who was I to criticize men whom God had hand-picked? God was in charge, and if his ministers were doing something wrong, it was his place to correct them, not mine.
I continued to believe that until I was 44 years old. I made excuses for some of the most incredibly blatant abuses that I have ever seen. (You can read about some of them by searching for articles by "John B" at the website.)
But believe me, Rachel, the church you grew up in was not half as bad as the one I grew up in. By the early 1980s they had stopped teaching a lot of things (like the Great Tribulation in 1972, for example -kind of hard to stick by that when 1972 had come and gone and the Tribulation hadn't happened). They stopped teaching U.S. and Britain in Prophecy, that medicine was sin, that divorce was sin, that lipstick was sin, and many other similar doctrines. They rarely told us when they stopped believing in something, and as a result a lot of old-timers still died because they refused to get medical attention, or let their kids get vaccinations, etc.
You didn't see it Rachel, but it DID happen. I didn't see World War II, either, but it DID happen.
If you only just found the website, you haven't had time to read all the articles posted there. I suggest you look at "Worldwide Church of God Horror Stories" for starters, then check out "You Might Have Grown Up In Worldwide Church of God If..." Trust me, nothing on that website that I've seen is untrue, or even exaggerated. It all happened, and if you can ever find anything that is not true, the editor will remove it.
You may think the church has "grown" in the past ten years. Certainly the watchdog groups have removed the "cult" label from the church, but the hearts of the men in charge are no more pure than Armstrong's was. Joseph Tkach Jr. grew up under the Armstrong regime and learned how to rule with an iron fist. I knew his father personally, and I remember Joe Jr when he was a teenager. Neither man was anyone I would want to invite home for dinner.
I don't expect you to believe all this just because I say so. But keep your eyes open. Whenever any decision is made, or explanation offered, ask yourself "why". Don't accept it at face value, but ask yourself who benefits from the decision or explanation. Is it you, the member, or they, the ministry? I'm willing to wager that 99 times out of a hundred (to be generous), it will be "they".
Good luck. John B
Yes, I too was a "Party Man" that would have made any Nazi zealot proud. I wish to apologize for bullying spokesman club men who missed the odd meeting and received a "concerned" phone call from President Colin. (Honest, Rob, Murph' made me do it!) I repent of all the opening prayers that centered around the "apostle" and the "true church". I regret the great concern I expressed when some had the wit, before I finally did, to get far away from "God's government". I would like to delete my personal files that revolved around "evangelizing" my friends and family (thank goodness I was a lousy witness. not one of them converted). I thank God that my 22 year association with the Worldwide Church of God did not leave me broken, hateful, or unemployed (angry? oh, yes!).
Thank you for this website!
Colin Ward, Saskatoon, SK. Canada
Hi Editor.
Dennis McKinsey lives in Hilliard, Ohio just a short distance from my home town. Some time ago he sent me an e mail which I thought you might find interesting. Here is what he said:
Alex :
When Biblicists tell you the bible is scientifically precise and completely accurate, ask them to address the following questions and problems regarding the flood.
Before the flood:
How did animals travel from all over the world?
Some, like the sloths, can't travel overland very well at all.
Some, like the koalas, require a special diet. How did they bring it along?
Some, like the dodo, must have lived on islands. (If they didn't, they would have been easy prey for other animals.) If animals lived fairly close to Noah before the flood (as Whitcomb and Morris suggest), how were they able to survive the predation and competition pressures from all the others, and why doesn't evidence of their living together show up in fossil distributions?
How was the ark loaded? The bible says all the animals were all loaded in seven days {Gen. 7:4}. Even if there were only 9 million species to be loaded, there would have to be an average of 30 animals per second going through the ark's one door.
How was the ark made seaworthy? The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was 450 feet long. {Gen. 6:15}
Life on the ark.
How did all the different species fit on the ark? Ten million species is a reasonable estimate of species presently alive, though estimates vary widely. They all would have had to fit in about 100,000 square feet of deck space {Gen. 6:15-16}. Since most animals are small, they probably could all have fit, but only if you allow very little room around them. Caged animals probably wouldn't all fit, nor would the animals have any room to exercise. The dinosaurs, mastodons, and other now extinct animals would have been aboard the ark as well {Gen. 7:15, Morris, 1993}, and they would take up a lot of room. Bracings, corridors, bilges, etc. would have taken up a lot of room too. If you hypothesize significantly fewer species on the ark than now exist, you must explain evolution rates faster than any evolutionist propose to account for all the present species. How did Noah supply food and water for all the animals for a year? {Gen. 6: 21}. Food for a year would have taken up many times the space of the animals themselves. (I know of no animals, except some desert amphibians, that hibernate for anywhere close to a year.)
How was the food kept fresh for a year? (Aphids, e.g. can't eat wilted plants.)
What did the carnivorous animals eat, especially those that require fresh meat?
How did creatures needing special environments survive on the ark?
How was the ark kept livable? Shoveling the manure of the ungulates alone must have been a full time job for eight people.
How well ventilated was the ark? The body heat from millions of closely packed animals must have been very intense.
That is just the first page of the four that he sent me. And the stench on the ark must have been horrible. Especially from the many that farted at random.
Alex
REPLY:
Hi Alex.
Well the Bible supporters will just say that "god" helped Noah with all the supposed problems. You know they have an answer for everything. If its good, its god's will. If its bad, its gods will. If they can't explain it, god did it. Or, Satan did it. Simple.
They don't really have to come up with logical answers for anything.
Editor
Good afternoon to the editor;
My name is Jim and I live in Orangeburg, SC.
I came across your website and I want to say, keep up the good work. I am a former Christian and I wonder how I believed as I did. I am looking forward to exploring you website further but I wanted to take a few minutes to say thanks for what you are doing. Your work is important and people like myself are grateful for the help it brings us.
I was a Christian for nearly 35 years and I am almost 58 now. I was dedicated to the church and did my best to do as "god" would have me do. I truly believed in the church and it's message. What happened? How does one go from believer to non-believer? It wasn't easy and it was not something I was searching for. I decided to study and learn as much about religion as possible so I could really please "god." But a funny thing happened on the way to becoming a better Christian, I discovered the truth.
To make a long story short, I realized that Christian beliefs don't hold water and I soon found myself questioning everything. I am now one of many who feel we must stand up against the false promises of religion and do what is necessary to free our minds from the hold of religion.
I now write articles to the local paper and do what I can to crush the hold of religion on people's mind. It is a battle worth fighting but sometimes it seems useless. People believe because they want to believe. My wife told me she was happy with her beliefs and didn't care about the truth. Sadly, I am afraid that is the mindset of too many people. However, I feel we must do what we can to get the truth out there. So thanks for what you are doing. Personally, I feel we need to focus more on the younger minds. If we could somehow teach children how to think, question, and reason, we would be more successful.
Once again, thanks for your website. I am sharing it with all my friends who think as I do. All both of them!
Sincerely, Jim
REPLY:
Hi Jim.
Yes, I'm afraid we are in the minority. Most people are like your wife and do not want to think about why they "believe" what the do. Its too disorienting. The sad thing is that they don't turn off their brains with no side effects. It affects the money they have available for themselves and their families. It leads to a lower standard of living for true believers. It leads to child abuse. It leads to abuse of women. It leads to war.... (Although I am of a conservative mindset, I find it absolutely frightening when I hear that President Bush can "feel" when his fellow Americans are not on their knees praying enough.)
I think the liberals are doing a pretty good job in our public schools as far as trying to get children to think more rationally in regards to religion. What we need is a Harry Potter type of book that will reach children with a rational point of view.
Regards, Editor
Dear Editor,
Thank you so much for the "Painful Truth." I have gone through quite a life joining the Worldwide Church of God (or is it WWCG...honestly, isn't grammar wonderful when your cult is filled with wannabes and idiots.) with my family when I was seven years old in 1969. I tried to leave the church during my teen years but found that the bullshit that had been placed in my head for all those years wouldn't wash out after several attempts to make it in the "real world." You know the one, the one where people that did what HWA did go to jail for a very long time.
I am writing a book about my life as it was filled with excitement and huge prophetic happenings...I speak as a fool, obviously...thanks to the crap that this man put out there to cull buckets of money from unsuspecting people who just wanted to live the right way of life.
I'd love to sue the church for psychological abuse, emotional trauma, and anything else you could name to get some of my money and time well wasted back. Do you have any kind of a class action lawsuit in mind where I could sign on?
Yes, I am writing a trilogy of life living in first the faith of the Mennonites in southern Canada, and then the experience of four years of the Ambassador College brain cleansing. Yes, I am a graduate of AC...and so is my ex-wife. Perhaps you understand why she is my ex-wife.
I could go on and on about Richard Paige (a gay man who had a very good mind for history actually, and no he never molested me) Richard Ames (who only joined the church to save his own ass from the fire and brimstone of the lake of fire) Kevin Dean (who enjoyed screwing the brains out of his campers up at the church camp in Orr, Minnesota),,,etc., etc.
It goes on and on and I could talk about this for a very long time but I would appreciate a line back to see if I could be of any help.
With Brotherly Love...he says meaning...I do enjoy your website...
Sincerely, Randolph
(released from the church's clutch 8 years ago) Peace out!
REPLY:
James,
I'm afraid I can't help you with this. I will post your message and see if we get any response.
Editor
I would like to congratulate you on not being afraid to tell all who will listen, the truth about Worldwide Church of God. My husband and I were members and left several years ago and have been keeping up with sites such as yours. Frankly, we cannot believe anyone who was or is in that cult would not know that what you say is the truth! My husband was a local elder and was in years longer than I and he knows how things were and are still being run.
We both have our stories and they are not pleasant! What I really wanted to tell you is that I have come to the same conclusion as you sir. For a very long time I felt guilty of feeling that there is no "god" as we all have been brought up think. I too started 'looking' and 'listening' with my own brain and could not reconcile the 'spiritual' saying that it is gods will for what ever happened in our lives. I started saying it out loud after awhile and to my surprise my husband was on the same wave length! We started looking at the bible and the more we saw that what this so called god did in the O.T. could only come from a human god not a 'loving, merciful, being'. I have read so many books on the subject and if the majority of the authors are right the O.T. is nothing but a copy of ancient Sumerian text. I cannot help but feel so empty anyway.
When you grow up hearing about a wonderful "afterlife" because this one stinks, it is hard to get out of the yearning for something or someone out there that really could intervene for you. I do believe in some type of creation, but not what I was taught. If you ask me I really think we were a mistake that was thrown out of some higher intelligences lab.
We meet up with people who are still members and they act like they don't know what to say or do, so what we do is give them a big hug and are the same as we always were when we were in the church. That tends to throw them off and we think it is funny.
Good luck on you efforts to educate and share what you do.
Judy
REPLY:
Judy,
Thanks for your message. Yeah, its tough losing the "sure" knowledge that there is an afterlife, but now we can make the most of what we know we have. Religious people have to live in a dream world. They are on a perpetual drug dose. At least our minds are clear and we can think for ourselves.
Regards,
Editor
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