-----------------------

16 June 05

As one of your "adherents" I think that "Vinkmod's" email(6/11/05) speaks for itself. It's just childish bullshit. So, "judge me by my enemies."

"xbeliever"

---------------------

11 June 2005 -- VinkMod

Wow!  It looks like the COG's really are spreading the gospel of Christian love!  Just observe the

latest love-letter we received today!

From: Vinkmod@aol.com

To: editor@hwarmstrong.com

Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 1:41 AM

Subject: Another "Get over it" e-mail

Chief -

I have read a few of your posted articles and I really do think "Wow, what a bunch of snivelling B's." So you or your parents misinterpeted the bible and you had to "suffer." boo hoo. Let me ask you this, did you ever go hungry? Did you ever go without a roof over your head? Were you denied an education or nice clothing? Did you not get toys from your parents, even if it was'nt on Christmas morning? Talk about wasted space. I know your type, poor little upper middle class boy. You and the rest of your adherents trully are a bunch of siss-wads wuzzies. Man how I wish you were standing next to me right now, I'd slap you into next week, not because I disagree with you but wow, a whole website over "I got decieved" Get off the web and go get yourself a life sissy boy, grow up and become a man. I mean how old are you.

Reply 06-11-05

So tell me, Mr. Apostle, which one of the splinter cults do you pastor-general? You failed to identify yourself, so it's fairly evident that you either: (1) are a high ranking COG minister of some stripe; (2) you are some apostle's kid; or (3) you never served a hitch in the WCG at all. Your hostility suggests the first option, since you exhibit all the same fruits of the spirit that Herbert Armstrong did.

To address a few of your comments:

I have read a few of your posted articles and I really do think "Wow, what a bunch of snivelling [sic] B's."

What is a "B"?

Let me ask you this, did you ever go hungry?

I didn't, personally, but some people did. So the answer is YES.

Did you ever go without a roof over your head?

You should have seen some of the roofs over my head. I'm quite certain you would never have spent a single night in some of the places I lived. Some other people had to live in abandoned cars.

Were you denied an education or nice clothing?

Yes and yes.

Did you not get toys from your parents, even if it was'nt [sic] on Christmas morning?

Infrequently. But I've never complained about lack of toys, nor do I remember anyone else here doing so.

Talk about wasted space. I know your type, poor little upper middle class boy.

"Upper middle class"? Are you kidding? What do you base that on? You or your parents lived like fucking Kennedys next to the rest of us!

You and the rest of your adherents trully [sic] are a bunch of siss-wads wuzzies.

Sorry, you're misinformed. I don't have any "adherents". Just fellow victims.

Man how I wish you were standing next to me right now, I'd slap you into next week, not because I disagree with you but wow, a whole website over "I got deceived [sic]"

I wish the same thing. Because I would truly love to testify at your trial for aggravated battery and watch you sentenced to ten years for your Christian brutality.

Get off the web and go get yourself a life sissy boy, grow up and become a man.

A man like you? I'll pass, thank you. I prefer to treat others with respect and not threaten them with physical violence. What part of "Christian" don't you understand?

I mean how old are you. [sic]

Old enough to know better than to send threatening emails over the internet. Does the phrase "FBI" mean anything to you?

Some friendly advice: If you're going to write a letter of complaint (to anyone, not just here), especially if it's going to be published for the whole world to see, why don't you learn how to spell and use proper grammar? At the very least, have someone edit it for you. It will make you look less illiterate than you obviously are.

With warmest regards,

Chief

Warning!!!! The following is a series of exchanges between myself and VinkMod and contains some rather adult language and an example of the PT Editor losing his temper. You've been warned!

--(Vic)--

Dear Sir -

The other day I wrote you an e-mail were I called you a few names and would like to apologize at this time. I did not realize what you had gone through before I wrote the e-mail. Lesson - check things out before reacting.

I to was a believer, albeit for only a short time, in the teachings of Armstrong so I know how it feels, not to the same degree as you as I found out later. I to, like you, gave up on God and His bible due to all the contradictions in it. Then one day I happened upon a website titled L. Ray Smith and wow did he open up my eyes.

I know you do not like hearing bible quotes but please bear with me for I do want to give you a few:

1. "I am the Lord, ..........I form the light and create the darkness: I make peace and EVIL, I the Lord do all these things." Isa 45:6-7

2. "It is an experience of EVIL Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." Ecc 1:13 Concordant literal.

3. "I (God) created the waster to destroy." Isa 54:16 "His (God) hand has formed the crooked serpent." Job 26:13.

4. Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His will." Eph 1:11

There is no war being waged between "Good and Evil", Humanity, as a whole, are here to learn some very tough lessons (I see you have learned quite a alot) foremost, good and evil, life and death. Some lessons cannot be taught through instructions but have to be lived to be understood. No one knows darkness until they see a light and no one can see light unless their surrounded in darkness. Jesus said "Know ye not that you are the lights of the world." When it's all over though, every sorrow shall be erased, and then God "Will have all men be saved." 1 Tim 2:4. "God is the savior of all men, especially to those that believe." 1 Tim 4:10 and "In Adam all men die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive." 1 Cor 15:22. "Who (Jesus) gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time." 1 Tim 2:6.

You remind me of Job, a man who went through alot, well you know the story. He said "Shall not man recieve evil as well as good from the Lord." I know alot of people (Christians) think you are in alot of trouble, due to your website, but I would still rather be in your shoes than most for God would have you either hot or cold and brother you are cold right now. Not saying without good reason.

I have had a few tough things come my way also (Will not bore you with details) but I now realize I trully am a better man for it. Anyway chief, sorry for calling you a "poor little middle class siss wad" have a problem with acting before I think, God is working on that. I hope you (I really do) snap out of this for people are going to believe in what they believe regardless of how well you lay out the truth for them. Let it ride brother for everyone has to go through it. Take care and I will see you at the harvest.

Marc

(After Marc has read JohnB's response on the website)

Chief -

Point taken, I don't know you and visa-versa. Live like the Kennedy's?, dude I wouldnt have said "Poor little upper class" if I lived above that. Apostle, apostle's kid?" not hardly, didnt know anything except Catholic and protestant period. 10 years for "slapping you into next week?" You been watching to much "Law and order." A year probation tops. Grammer? I also didnt recieve the best education. The spirit in which I wrote the first e-mail? is the same spirit you have writing your website. Tough life? brother you dont know what tough is. And Yes, I did belong to WCG as a sucker like you, just seen the light alittle quicker than you.

Again, I apologize for my first e-mail, I wrote an apology(second e-mail) before I seen that you had posted my first. Man did I laugh and than laughed again. Wait, .....Laughed again.

see ya-

Marc Vink (there Identified)

(To which, I responded...)

From: Editor

To: Vinkmod@aol.com

Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:19 PM

Subject: Re: Wow

Mike Minton, PT Editor here.

Your original email was answered on the website by JohnB, who is the Crewchief around these parts, and a damned fine man.

He used a lot of restraint in his response -- more than I would have.

I would have simply said you're an insensitive, ignorant idiot and told you to go slither back into your sewer pond.

Many people have been hurt over the years, by many things; uncaring pricks like you are one of them.

And NO....apology NOT accepted, ya fuckstick....

Mike Minton

---(Marc responds)----

Minton and the crew chief (couldn't crew a thirsty horse to water)

"Uncaring pricks like you" Look who's calling the kettle black, I mean have you read your website? Do you read the hateful, venomous rhetoric you spew. To disagree is one thing but all you do is berate and belittle. By the way, I wrote that letter to you, so if it offended anyone else but you, that's your own fault for posting it.

"Mike Minton, editor and chief here", Talk about delusions of grandeur, you have a two bit website that trashes other people's beliefs, that's all you have. The only people you attract are people already just like you so your not reaching anyone.

"John B is a damned good man" I'm sure he is when he's not bagging on people who disagree with his philosophy. Minton, you said you would not have "held back", there's nothing you can throw at me verbally or physically that I couldn't easily cast aside. Oh do I hear johnny crew chief in the back ground "That's not very christain", who ever said I was one. If I'm anything I would be a Unitarian, I have buddist friends, catholic, athiest and even have a buddy into tao te, we might not see eye to eye but we respect our beliefs and we definitly would not post a picture of each others God on a website and openly mock it like you two dickless morons do. You see Minton, even I can use obscene language.

Minton, you stated that I would tell a rape victim to get over it. There is a big difference between that and what you two ...what word did you use Minton? oh yea "fucksticks" are. You were decieved and it hurt, who hasn't been. You might think that gives you the right to mock, or should I say rape, other peoples values but it certainly does not. You attack viciously and think because I was hurt I am justified. Not in my book dickless.

I am glad you didn't accept my apology for I wrote it because of someone I love very dearly wanted me to, so it was done grudgingly. Minton it sounds like you want a piece of me? I bet you hail from S Cal, me N Cal, name the place, time and I will be there to lock horns, or do you just belittle from behind the safety of your keyboard? You see, I do know your type. Oh do I hear Johnny crewchief again "I'll call the FBI." go for it numnuts, I am sure your close to a phone at all the times so you can call your mommy.

Lets recap, Yes I do think you two are a pair of wussies, and yes I would like to slap both of you into next week. I hope you post this email in it's entirety, but you won't will you, no because dickless hits a little to close to home don't it. You see Johnny crewchief, one doe's not need good grammer to get one's point across.

Now I am through with you, do not write back for you will just waste your time for I will only delete it, unless that is minton you want to lock it up then just leave a city and time, you can even bring crewchief with you. Adios

Marc

---(My response)---

----- Original Message -----

From: Editor

To: Vinkmod@aol.com

Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:32 PM

Subject: Re: Wow reply

THAT's the way.... Twirl your dipstick in the cyber-air...maybe YOU are impressed....

To me, you're a two-bit bum with no redeeming values and a boatload of anger....

Who asked you to write me, cum-spot??? Who begged you to belch your snotty, hostile, mucous at me? Huh? At those who have been hurt by bunch of conmen???? NOONE did, that's who, ass-drip!!!!!!!!

The sad part is? If you took that rusty coat hanger out've your head, you MIGHT just be a decent person...until then, you're just a walking abortion.

Mike Minton

(---Marc)---

Put your muscle where your mouth is shit bird, or is it like I said, you only put people down behind the safety of your keyboard. Location asshole, do not write me unless you want to meet sissy boy.

--(Me)--

----- Original Message -----

From: Editor

To: Vinkmod@aol.com

Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:02 PM

Subject: Re: Wow reply

That's the way you do things, huh? Like a third-grade locker room pecker-check? Sorry...I outgrew that juvenile response decades ago.

Listen..... Let's get one thing clear. I hear a threat come from your piehole, your AOL email addy and data are being transmitted to the FBI.

This is a no-shitter. It wouldn't be the first time.

Now... You can choose to continue being the pus pocket you have been, about me, and toward me, JohnB, and toward all these good people whose stories are related on the PT website -- or you can take a moment to realize that you are wrong.

We will not "get over it", until we do. And it's none of your goddamned concern if we do or not, now or ever. We aren't busting your balls, mister: YOU wrote US. We didn't ask you to. So don't fall back on your whiney little toddler threats.

Just be a good human being, understand the hurt these folks have gone through, or else go elsewhere.

That is all. You're dismissed.

Mike Minton

Editor -- The Painful Truth

---(Marc)---

Mike -

I am not afraid of you calling the FBI Mike, I choose my words very carefully and theres nothing to call about. Anyway, while you were writing this, I was writing to you. Look chief, this has gotten out of hand. Im going to let it go, nay I need to let it go.

--(Then Marc writes)--

Mike Minton -

You know the first e-mail I wrote to your organization I trully wished I could have taken back. I said some things that I did regret, so I wrote an apology. Maybe it wasn't the best but I am a very stubburn man. Then I clicked on your website to see that my original was posted and I had to laugh because I did deserve the bashing that John B gave me. But, being who I am I wrote another to "set things" straight about who I was and how I was also a member of the WWCofG for a two years. I thought, ok it's over. but along comes you Mike Minton. You called me insensitive, ok, I deserved that, but no, you had to add "prick" to it. Then you go on to tell me that I should go back to the premordial ooze that I crawled out from. Getting alittle upset now - and then you top it off by calling me a "Fuck-stick".; now I'm hot. I wanted to rip into you but it was late and my girlfriend stayed my hand. Let it go, Let it go, I kept on telling myself. The next day (today) I get home from work to find your handy work again, pride takes over and I sit down to write you the nastious letter I could come up with.

I can tell your educated Mike and I feel you use it to intellectual bully people, if there is such a term, and I never had liked people who use brains to bully the not so intellegent just like people who use bronze to bully the weak, so yes I have a problem with that.

The funny part is I really do not have a problem with your web-site. What motivated me to write the original e-mail was the picture your site has posted of Jesus and the blurps added and I was very tipsy, no excuse but It set me off. I got self righteous and decided I was going to give the what for to you. The next day when my head cleared I really did regret it. I to have a major problem with "Tax deductable" churches myself, especially Catholics, for I was raised one and even went to catholic schools. Talk about resentment. I personally will not step foot in a church building again. So I do not care one way or the other about the WWC of God but I do still believe in God for I have had experiences.

Anyway I do have a pride/anger problem which I let get out of hand, my e-mails case in point. I again wish it had not gotten this far for, believe it or not, I do care about people who have been used and abused, when the smoke clears it all boils down to pride. I think like "How dare he cuss at me like I'm some kind of ......" etc etc... what's my point? Mike (this is hard for me) and John, one more time if you can, forgive me for I am sorry, I was insensitive, I acted before thinking, gave in to pride and anger and, like always, I regret it. I'm sorry for my behavoir. Well that's all I can say and do, Mike in your last e-mail when you said "your probably a decent person if you" .....stuck me, I quickly forced it down but it rose up again. Please do not write if your going to bash I beg of you< I know I do not deserve it but let it ride please.

Marc Vink

ps what a mouth you have Mike, do you ever not cuss like a sailor?

--(Me)--

Marc,

Thanks much for this email...

In many ways you sound a lot like me:)

That cartoon of Jesus is humor, nothing more than that. Maybe it WILL get under some folks' skins a bit, but...after all, that's what we do. Try to make folks think a little.

Hey look...I think most folks are decent, if they allow themselves to be -- Christians, atheists, gays, straight, purple, green, gleaming or dull. A lot of folks don't let themselves be, I think.

And you know what?

Not I, JohnB, nor anyone else who considers themselves a part of the PT website, hold it against anyone who believes in a god. It isn't much of our business, number one. Number two, isn't it more important to go after the Bad Guys? The crooks? The conmen? Be they religious leaders, politicians, etc? Rather than the Good Ones who are just quietly living their lives and doing what they want to do?

One thing though, you need to really think about.... This idea that folks just "need to get over it." These are fightin' words, Marc. It's like some Bible-Thumper defining for me, an atheist, just what an atheist is.... They have no idea. Folks got hurt by a bunch of conmen religious jerks. Folks still are.... That's why the PT site exists; it's a place for those who have been hurt, (sometimes really bad, Marc!), to see they aren't alone. That's a Good Thing...the Best Thing. They aren't alone.

Tell ya what... I personally accept this apology. There's a decent person inside there, I'd bet:) You really ought to apologize, however, to all those folks you raked over the coals with your initial blast... The Readers of this site. You owe them an apology. Most of them did nothing wrong except try to live with God...and they got shafted by conmen. You belittled their lives. Think about it?

Have a cold one on me, and let's start a new day now, how 'bout it?

Mike Minton

Editor

The Painful Truth

PS --

I cuss for effect....When it's necessary to gain someone's attention...

--(From Marc)---

----- Original Message -----

From: Vinkmod@aol.com

To: editor@hwarmstrong.com

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 11:47 PM

Subject: Apology to the Good folks at PT

Dear Members at PT -

I wrote a very insensitive, assinine letter to you good people the other day in which I would like to say at this time I am trully sorry for. I wrote it in a spirit of hatred and callousness and pig headedness. I am extremely ashamed of the way I acted. I belittled the pain and suffering you feel for no other reason but to be nasty and add insult to injury. I further made a fool of myself by attacking your editor Mr. Mike Minton and his associate John B when they tried to make me see the insensitivity I diplayed by verbally threatening them, as you can see I have issues.

I know I do not deserve it but I would like to ask for your forgiveness and say that I am very sorry for my behavoir. You people have been through alot and the last thing you need is another blowhard buffoon telling you to "get over it." I had no right and I deserved the thrashing that Mike and John gave me. You people should know that you have two very good men in your corner who stand up for you and are not afraid to give an ass like me the "what for".

Again, I am sorry and I do hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me, I acted like a complete fool. No excuse.

Sincerly, Marc Vink

Good deal Marc!

See? There's a decent human bein' over there after all! You oughtta think about joining our Forum... Lotsa good folks there to swap stories with and all....

Anyways, thanks again. It takes a real man to write that and you've got my respect...

Regards,

Mike Minton

------------

10 June 05 -- This is amazing!

I was raised in the WWCG. I had no idea that there were so many people in the world that experienced some of the same ordeals that I did. After leaving the church I thought that the crazy things that went on were just happpening in my local church.(Rome, Georgia) When I saw the postings on your website I realized that the church as a whole had issues. I, like others, remember being an outcast in school because of "thinking" that I was still under the law. Watching the weather channel to know when sundown on Friday night was, being terrified of eating an unclean meat, watching my mother furiously try to get all of the leavened bread out of our house during that "special week", and watching my family go without so that we could pay tithes is just a few of the things I have tried to block out of my mind. I too remember the sermons of Mr. Waterhouse and was actually good friends with Michael Hanisko's eldest daughter, Jannah . It was a real relief to know that I am not alone in trying to deal with what I know went on in that church. In the Fall of the year I still find myself thinking of the Feast Of Tabernacles. I don't miss the "learning" that was recieved, but the socializing. It was as if I actually belonged to something. In all reality I never did because my family did not have that much money. Anyone that was a part of that church realizes now that money was all that matter. It seemed that when my family left the church I had no stability in my life. However, I sooned learned that the one thing they did not teach had always been the stability in life. JESUS CHRIST. It is just a great releif to know that I am not alone. I can say that I gained a great knowledge of the Old Testament, since that was primarily what was taught, and that was worth while. Any education is good education. Now that I look back I just figure that it was all a growing experience that God knew I needed to go through. I have finally seen that God's grace is not as complicated as they tried to act. I will not go to any kind of "place of safety", but that fact remains that I do trust Jesus and I do have a personal relationship with Him. That just means that when I die I will be absent from the body and present with the Lord, and that is the best security that I could ask for.
Thank you so much for your site. I can not help but giggle to myself everytime I get on. Some of the stuff that we were brain washed into believing is, at this point, a bit comical. God bless you and keep up the good work. It is great to be able to vent with others that can understand!!!!!!!!!!

Elizabeth

It's email like this, and folks like you, that remind us here that we're doing a Good Thing, Elizabeth!

Thank YOU!

--PT

-----------

9 June 05

Just out of raw curiosity I would like to know what these splinter groups are making a year in "tithes". How can I find out? Isn't there an IRS form that non-profits submit and that these are open to the public?

Marsha G___

ex-wwcog member!!!

I dunno, Marsha. Shouldn't be too difficult to find the numbers... Anyone?

--PT

-----------

7 June 05

Hello!

My name is Kristine T____ ; I'm 24 and living in Detroit , MI . My father joined the WCG in 1984 (woah, irony?) in Sacramento , CA when I was just turning four. For this reason, I say I grew up in "the church". I think I started questioning the doctrine when I was 8 or 9. I don't think I listened to most sermons, but I would read the bible constantly. I'd listen to the first 10 minutes and then when we flipped to whatever verse in our bibles, I'd just keep reading. I don't remember what it was, but I thought to myself "but that's not what he (the pastor) just said!" It was then that I started reading the whole bible front to back, and I had tons of questions. I knew I couldn't talk to anyone I knew (all my friends were in "the church") or my parents or even the pastor. Who would listen to a kid anyway? I silently came to see that "church" was just an organization – a social club. So, I did an experiment. When I was 10 or so I decided not to go to church for an entire month. When I came back, was I welcomed with open arms? Did anyone worry about me being sick? Was I greeted with the "Philadelphian" Christian love they believed they had? No. I was snubbed by my friends and I could see the whispers among their parents. Eventually they talked to me again, but it was never the same.

The Y.O.U. and the Y.E.S. "clubs" were about indoctrinating the children and to placate their cries about not being able to participate in the school functions – sports, concerts, and various other things. Though I hold my parents partially responsible I also sort of blame the WCG for ruining my childhood. I never really made too many friends in school because I was discouraged from socializing with them, not allowed to participate in after-school clubs that had functions on "the sabbath". I truly respect and love my parents, and didn't want to cause problems because I didn't believe in the farce – otherwise they would have had quite the rebellious teenager on their hands.

When Joseph Tkach(sp) Sr. started changing things, and the 'big split' happened, my parents decided to follow Roderick C. Meredith and join the Global Church of God. It was not until then that they actually started questioning the veracity of not only WCG and GCG but the bible itself. My father was surprised that when he came to me to try and explain why they were 'quitting the church' I told him that I had discovered all of this long ago and that he didn't need to explain it to me. I think I was 16 at the time.

Anyway, I've been reading through the Ambassador Report, and have gained a lot of historical perspective on the WCG. So, I wanted to thank you for posting it. It's very interesting. I never really learned too much about HWA or his doctrines beyond some book about sex he published. What was that called again? Missing Dimension in Sex? My dad had a copy of it, and I read a little of it because of the title. I do have one question though, because I cannot remember. I'm doing a little research of my own about the origins and doctrines (and true motives) of the WCG and was curious – the WCG published a magazine for teens and I cannot remember what it was called. It came to everyone who was in Y.O.U. though. If you could tell me the title, that would be lovely. I've long since thrown away all of the magazines I had collected.

I hope this letter reaches you in good health!

Sincerely,

Kristine T____

Detroit , MI

I don't recall the name of that magazine, Kristine.... Maybe someone here can help us out!

--PT

-------------

5 June 05

Dear PT,

Stumbled across your web site on "The Painful Truth". The reason is that last night someone gave me a copy of "Tomorrow's world" editored by Roderick Meredith (Ihe must be getting old by now). Same old rubbish they were pumping half a century ago. The incredible thing is that, even with such easy access to the facts about that scam of a religion on the net, there is always a new generation of suckers waiting to be fleeced. These guys know how to operate within the law, and that old time religion is the best standby for the true conman. Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Gary C

Thanks Gary,

Yep. Nothing new under the sun here... but we're still trying to have a place for those who have figured out what BS it all is, to gather and talk and share, if they want...

As an aside... I notice you'e email addy includes BigPond. You down under? Reason I ask is, I spent most of last year down there. Still have an account with them myself:)

Cheers,

--PT

Mike,

Yes, I live in Kings Cross in Sydney. I use Bigpond because it is the best of the dial-up servers here, but these things are always changing.

You probably are aware that American style semi-fundamentalist religions have taken on a strong foothold here, especially in the nor-west suburbs of Sydney. The local spruikers even mimick the Southern preaching style. I read a number of the articles on your site today, the unfulfilled prohecy page is hilarious.

Best regards,

Gary

------------

4 June 05

Hi, I'm an atheist too and I just wanted to say I really appreciated your site. It was enjoyable.

That's it..thanks!

Short and to the point! I likes it!

Yer welcome!

--PT

-----------

4 June 2005

It's been an exciting few weeks here on the 34th floor of Painful Truth Headquarters (overlooking

the diamond mines owned and operated by Tkach Enterprises).  Never a dull moment.  The more things

change, the more they stay the same.  Here's another "get over it" letter from someone who still...

doesn't get it.

----- Original Message -----

To: <editor@hwarmstrong.com
>

Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 7:16 PM

Some of this is Laugh-out -Loud funny!!!!!!!!!!!! Some I can see you Still have pain! I too grew up in "The Church" but there's no tears for me. As a second generation WWCG I realized that when the Bible said "prove all things", that's what it meant! You guys need to get over it! My 1st Feast was in '68 @ Big Sandy. I can remember when the blacks, (That's me), couldn't sit on the same side as the whites in Georgia!!! But mom & dad thought that was the way, so what could a 5 year old kid do? I feel a lot like you all do and to me it's " hurt my side" funny! I'm glad we all survived it. I'm truly closer to my own kids and their feelings because all I have to do is think back of all the school functions and Friday nights missed! However, I still and always will believe in God Almighty, that's where we differ! Stay Up!

~gabe~ H-Town

P.S. I threw my unleavend lunch away on the way to school and ate a pork dog or two, please don't tell!

REPLY 06/04/2005

Well Gabe, I think you were probably smarter than most of the rest of us. When they told me to "prove all things", it clearly meant to "prove that what we're telling you is true". If I had proven anything else they would have kicked me out, and everyone knew that getting kicked out meant eternal death. Maybe you were never brainwashed as thoroughly as the rest of us.

You mentioned pain. The pain you see on these pages primarily comes from people who have recently exited and still can't believe what has happened to them. As time goes by, the pain gets less, and usually disappears after a time.

Have you ever had the experience of something happening that upset you, but then you forgot about it; years later, someone brings it up, and when you think back on how outrageous it was, you got angry all over again? That's also what you're seeing here. On a daily basis I never think of WCG at all. Then someone gets talking about it, and all the old memories come flooding back. Except for those moments, I am "over it", and so is everyone else here.

The purpose of this website is not to sit around and whimper over what happened to us. This website is here for those people who are still being lied to, stolen from, and browbeaten. Some of them will eventually wake up and get out -- when they do, we are here waiting to help them.

Remember when your family wasn't allowed to sit with the Caucasian crowd? You didn't much like that, even though your parents accepted it. And now you're over it. Tell me, Gabe...if you knew that was still going on, wouldn't it piss you off?

I think it would.

John B

P.S.: What is "H town"? You're not pulling a Jesse Jackson here, are you?

Gabe responds:

~Gabe~ H-Town = Houston, Texas

---------------------

1 June 2005

[Please keep all spelling and punctuation errors intact. Also please keep
my real name and e-mail withheld for my family's sake]

Dear Co-Workers, Brethrens, Sistrens, Cisterns, and Sisyffi:

Where Are We NOW In Prophesy?

Currently I'm getting a full body message from our naked stewardess
Ingrid, a mile above New York City, where the World Trade Centers were
attacked on September 11, 2001 to punish our modern Israelitish peoples
for their sin-filled, sex crazed materialism.

But our stiff-necked people did not listen to the ETERNAL about how they
should surrender totally to the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden, thus
fulfilling the prophesy of the pride of our power broken. Yes, they DID
NOT LISTEN TO PROPHESY-- Instead our sin-filled people became enraged. And
you know that rage is the work of Satan. Remember that fact! Our people
are guilty of being angry at people that wanted to kill us. THINK ABOUT
IT. What did Christ say? Turn the other cheek. Walk the extra mile. Give
them your cloak too. Don't sue -- which reminds me, I WILL SUE THE SHIT
out of ANYONE that uses any copyrighted material from my church or any
other sabbath-keeping church without my permission, including the other
sabbath-keeping churches -- so Christ said blessed are the peacemakers?
Are you a peacemaker? I am.

Today, as foretold by me in an unpublished article soon to be published
after the fact, the USA is the only SUPERpower in the history of the
world, an economic force unmatched by any nation or group of nations. She
is attacking her neighbors, unprovoked, with a fury not seen since Satan
attempted to take over the old WCG all the time! Meanwhile, Ethiopia is
about to attack Italy ONCE AGAIN. I think.

Meanwhile, France (modern day Reuben-- see our AWESOME and TIMELY booklet
The Plain Truth About Jewish Deli Sandwiches) pulled out of the EU
Constitution effectively ending the EU. Why? Why has Reuben dealt so
treacherously. Everyone knows that a reuben, especially with onions, makes
your instestines unstable as water. And as Christ said in Revelation 3 He
will spew them out. WHY? Why does God spew them out? Read it
carefully--Because Reuben is the five virgins of Matthew that slept in
their father's bed incestously (see Genesis). And God hates the five
virgins but loves the sinner. Blow off the dust from your Bible. Get on
your knees and fast, reading WHAT I WROTE AGAIN or else it won't sink into
your brain. I think 99.9% still don't get it. I get it and I love it. Do
you love it? I hope you do.

The question remains, where are we NOW in prophesy, seeing that prophesy
has deviated greatly from prophesy?

Good question. I'm glad you asked it. You may not know this but prophesy
is news foretold by the GREATEST NEWSCASTER--ME AS God reveals it to ME
through Christ the greatest newscaster besides me! But you were stupid and
that's why it didn't work. God doesn't talk to stupid people. You thought
the USA's economy would be in a depression. You thought Australia would be
overrun by my Japanese sons. You thought the Hamite Blacks would destroy
South Africa after aparteid ended. You thought the EU would be goose
stepping through London and Christchurch. You thought we'd be lazing about
in the caves of southeast Jordan with narry a worry of a bunker-buster,
But it isn't happening. Why not? I never told you it would happen NOW. NOT
NOW and NOT NEVER.

There are rumors from some former ministers that said I said it. But I
don't listen to rumors -- nor should you. Where are these rumor mongers
now? One guy is a pedaphile. Another is a womanizer. A third commits
incest. A forth masterbates while setting dates for Christ's return! God
commands us to look at the fruits. Their fruits show they don't know BUT I
KNOW and I'm going to box your ears with the truth.

The simple answer is that the American and British peoples haven't been
warned enough to make them believe they suck rotten eggs! THAT. And the
fact--stunning BUT TRUE fact--that it's ALL your fault. You're still not
ready as a BRIDE PREPARED. The prophesies have not panned out because
you're not doing enough to adorn yourself with the wedding dress and put
on make-up. It's not my fault. I'm working tirelessly to make a STUNNING
BREAKTHROUGH, MAD DASH, MEDIA-SPILLED PRESENTATION!!! And you, you're
still putting on that filthy dress which pictures your filthy
righteousness in the Book of Isaiah--THE ETERNAL calls you a BASTARD in
Hebrews, if you don't listen to this truth!!! I'll repeat it because
you're stupid sheep. The Book of Isaiah says your righteousness is like
filthy MENSES RAGS. No wonder God won't return-- YOU'RE a make-up wearing,
man-whore, bastard that uses tampons for dresses. You're a MAN-WHORE
bastard! But I'm only telling you this truth because I love you as a
father loves his daughter.

But I have great news, Stop crying for a second and listen. I have decided
that God, and NO MAN, has called me to be the 22nd Century
Apostle-Prophet. Indeed history in the making. Isn't that fantastic? Why
are you still crying? REJOICE!

Dangling participles aside! For nearly 2,000 years mankind has not been so
RICHLY BLESSED with such a man AS MYSELF. NEVER has one man done so much
in so little time in serving the LIVING GOD. NOT THE APOSTLES. NOT CHRIST.
Not MOSES, not even NWA with or without Ice T, NO NOT EVEN HWA, is as good
as me in churning out AMAZING, new, gutsy, FAST PACED, modern, media hype.

Yes, It's high time we get back on track. It's high time we have a
masculine, strong, authoritarian leader to spank us, to tell us we're bad
boys and girls. BAD! Now I said stop that crying.

We need a media blitz with pizazz. We need an outreach program that
focuses once again on the leadership of the church. and flatters despots
the world over. We need to turn back the tide of liberalism in all its
forms including conservatism. We need to wash away the flawed concept of
church accountability, "isms" and what so-called "high critics," and
"educators" term as so-called "intellectualism and free-thinking" -- or as
I term it HOGWASH from the PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR.

What we need is another college campus. Better yet , we need four campi in
all four known continents ALL LED BY WHITE PEOPLE of pure Noahic, nordic,
teutonic, british ancestry complete with proper genealogical pedigree
papers that show every one of these burly men descended from King Edward
Longshanks! LONGSHANKS, Now that was man's man's name!!!

And I need at least four new corporate jets and two turboprops! And I want
a restored Rolls Royce Silver Cloud, a Deusenberg for weekend outings to
Monterey, and a Cadillac with BLING for my inner city adventures. And an
open bank account for visiting dignitaries. And we need to buy back the
Auditorium--the TRUE HOUSE OF GOD-- and pay performers to make us look
good to the community again. On second thought, because I think
BIG--BIGGER THAN ANY MAN in 14 time zones--we need two auditoriums, one
for God the Father and one for His Son. And Rob Zombie can play in one and
Blacked Eyed Peas in the other (for stunning information about the roots
of today's modern music please request GTA Becomes A Hippy and A
Hypocrite, Why Jazz Played by HWA Is Different Than Your Shit, the Missing
Dimension About Foreskins, and God Freaks Out on The New Morality).

But before we move quickly on those projects, we must move even quicklier
on a NEW HIGH-POWERED, glossy magazine to be sent to all the world. God be
praised! WE HAVE THAT SUPER GLOSSY NUMBER called Quest II. But since the
first Quest was less than a stunning maddening earth-shaking success as I
hoped--mainly because I used worldly men and I wasn't allowed to put my
name in all their articles as the official bylines--damn them all to hell!
Yes, I must concede that It was a miserable failure without me. So my
brother-in-law, Meredith Dillon C. Raymond McNair Garner Cole, decided on
a new title. You know he's the best title maker besides me in all of
publishing, perhaps The BEST TITLE MAKER-UPPER EVER! Are you ready to be
stunned? May one penny of tithe reach the God of Heaven that doesn't use
pennies!

Introducing "Apprehension and Insecurity Magazine," written on 24"x48'
expensive, glossy paper for Americans, Brits, Aussies, and Kiwis that
don't know dick about their countries' national and spiritual sins, AND
MORE IMPORTANTLY the little known PHYSICAL sins of irregularity and
impotence . Get your copy of AIM free today: DONT BE AIM-LESS. Call
1-777-YOU-SUCK. In Alaska dial 1-666-WOES. In Canada write B4 MEU LIVD.

Our operators are standing by to create the finest of somber, depressing
moods ever transmitted over live telephone connections. Feel free to
confess all your sins. We won't laugh. Really. Scouts honor. We will read
pre-written replies and if needed we will direct you to an office manager
who will read a managerial pre-written reply. And at no cost to you, we
will record your phone call conversation and type it up, then send it off
to our HQ ministry -- SPIRITUAL GIANTS ALL OF THEM UNTIL THEY PISS ME OFF
and I throw their rebellious asses out the window without a parachute.
Damn them all to hell! Anyway your phone call-transcript will be placed in
your permanent file, which will be read and reread in the back office
during downtime for laughs. I TOLD YOU WE DON'T LAUGH WHILE YOU ARE STILL
ON THE PHONE dammit!

Who knows? Your comments may even show up in the PGR--Pastor Generalisimo
Regurgitation--as those whacky WATS line bloopers read to all our
congregations. Don't feel offended, that's a sign of a bad attitude.
Remember, God thru Nathan boxed David's ears, according to my new Bible
translation still being worked on entitled Boxing Thy Ears Bible. But
David did lay with a young girl when he was old. Which reminds me of the
story of when the Philippino girl--

--Baron informs me that I'm off-topic. Baron you're disfellowshipped.
Wait. Come back Baron, you're my only family--

Now, you thought I forgot my place. I may be 85 or 95 or 105 and suffering
dementia but I know a thing or two about errogenous zones and spanking.

--if you're NOT comfortable calling our WATS line and are more inclined to
use Satan's tool-- the heretical internet -- it's your spiritual life you
are throwing away, write us at ww .doomgloom.tv.radio.net=$4org!

As the newest internet surfer to visit us, tallied by Alexa.com, we will
record your unique ISP "hit" which may be a short duration of nausea, or a
longer duration of disbelief, but, in fact, will ALL be illogically
deduced and heralded as proof of God's seal of approval. No matter your
reaction to our grossly inaccurate prophesies and worship of a dead guy,
we will discern your "unique session" as proof of God's blessing and open
doors.

Be sure to use our secret decoder password in the member's box. This long
and complicated phrase was used by the Scottish Rite outlined in our old
booklet The Plain Truth About Engineering. Legend, which we always believe
to be true unless it has the trinity or cross in it, has it that the
secret phrase was whispered over the Stone of Destiny by Abel Doubleday
Buckmaster Stuart III before his drool cup spilled in a freak, inbred
epileptic seizure, spilling it's swill and his unfortunate blood upon the
stone. It appears the blood came from Abel's body which was riddled with
ceremonial sword punctures. Abel was later buried upside down in the River
Thames (For more information request our TIMELY booklet A Plain Warning
About Writing The Plain Truth of Freemasonry, which is sadly out of
print).

This secret decoder password is YOURS for a small donation on the Day of
At One Ment (For more information request our TIMELY booklet Azazel Goat
or Sacrificial Goat--what's not for dinner during Atonement!) The
password and understanding should be kept from the wicked. Don't answer
family question. Don't cast your pearls before those swine--IT IS ONLY
YOURS, FOR YOU possess and understanding of the TRUER TRUTH than any other
true truth has ever been TRUTHED. It really tells you the truth that's
more true than the truth we tell the world that we have to warn with the
truth that must be watered down, otherwise the government would seize your
children and the AMA would sue us for practicing medicine without a
license.

This fantastic, ASTOUNDING MAGNIFICENT PROPHETIC UTTERANCE has been kept
from the world for 1900 years plus 52 -- approximately 102.74 GENUINE 19
year time cycles. This awesome, God-inspired site will enable you to click
on the only hyperlink available entitled "INSIDER Hokum" in which you will
receive your insider information Pack. But be warned you must read The
Mystery of Peat Moss and Celta-Druid Blood Sacrifices, plus 10,000 extra
articles containing our wildly depressing anti-american, anti-german,
anti-british material with featured sections showing total irreverance and
disdain for all other churches, synagogues, governements, and civic
groups. You must fast and read this literature FREE of CHARGE, reading THE
PLAIN TRUTH about TITHING EVERYTHING TO ME, as well as the TIMELY booklet
I'm God's Collection Agency first before reading the other booklets and
before you can be considered a PLOP -- prospective laymember on probation.

As a PLOP , you are entitled to receive an additional Pack of booklets,
magazines, and various doodles on Tim Horton napkins PLUS 1,000 highly
informative taped sermons (edited from their original content of
plagerism, lies, hypocrisy, deceit and failed prophesies) which if
followed precisely may allow you to become a FLOP -- fine laymember on
probation IN DUE TIME! It's fascinating.

As a FLOP your member file and tithing records will be discussed and
ridiculed over a fifth of Chivas by our esteemed MANLY MANPOWER ORGAN.
Once you are made a FLOP in good standing, you will be conducted into the
main body of saints through a secret initiation ceremony after your
probation of ten years is over, or unless you make a sizeable contribution
to my Isle of Man offshore foundation in the amount of no less than
$50,000 per year, in which case, you will be made an pastor-rank local
deacon elder immediately. If you send over $200,000 and a deed to your
successful hat company, I will personally french kiss you in public
(Michael Jackson and I call it a holy kiss) and elevate you to
evangelist-rank amateur local deacon elder! (For additional information on
baptism and ordinations request our TIMELY literature The Plain Truth
about Circumcision Through Total Body Immersion, GTA Speaks Out on Viagra,
The Plain Truth on Drowning Witches and Washing Sin, Ministerial
Credentials or Circle Jerking With Illogic--Huh?, and the classic Just
What Do Mean...I Want Answers?).

And that friends is where we are NOW in prophesy. We need to build the
church up again. We need to clean up all you man-whore bastards (stop
crying) and we need to stop questioning where we are NOW in prophesy.
Don't forget to tithe on the gross, send in your offerings, and remember
the Building Funds. We are in the gun lap. May God help you help us.

In Christ's Name (but not in deed),
The 22nd Century Apostle-Prophet

--------------------------

23 May 05

Sir:

I have just read the article by Bill at

http://www.hwarmstrong.com/prayer-the-only.htm

and when I replied to him he suggested that I send my response to you as well.
Although I have never been affiliated with the WCG, I find your site to be very interesting.

When I ask myself "what is prayer?" I can only answer that it is an expression of hope directed toward something.
In most cases this something is god. But it seems to me that the expectation that a god, such as is worshiped by the typical believer, would act according to our individual wishes is an absurdity on its face.

Someone once said that atheism is empty since it is devoid of hope. I say atheism is not devoid of hope, it is devoid of prayer. While prayer is hope, hope is not necessarily prayer. The chance that either succeeds is very low in most cases, since our hopes and prayers are usually focused on things we cannot directly influence. If we can affect the outcome, we would be acting, not hoping or praying.

Mike

--------------------------

15 May 05

Guys,

I have a CD of HWA works from the 1920's to his death, formatted by Don
Tiger. You may remember Don Tiger as the former PCG guy that ran into
trouble with the law after meeting Dave Pack.

In any event, I recall someone citing the 1966 Co-Worker letter as proof
that HWA indeed predicted 1972-1975 as the time to flee, great
tribulation, yadda yadda yadda. Later, HWA said he did not set any date.

Problem: I have a copy of the Co-Worker letter from the Tiger CD, dated
June 27, 1966. I don't know if it has been redacted by Tiger, or if HWA
actually wrote the parenthetical aside. Can you find a copy of the
original, or find someone with a copy? Or can you point me to the letter,
article, etc. that shows HWA indeed did predict 1972 to 1975 as the
definite prophetic end?

Thanks ahead of time.

Here is the quote from the CD, with Armstrong's idiosynchratic style
remaining:

"...That is all going to change! -- And SOON! By SOON, I mean, in all
probability (though I'm not setting dates) ten to fifteen years -- OR
LESS!..." (June 27, 1966 Co-Worker Letter)

Signed, Tom

I'm looking, Tom... Anyone else out there lay their hands on one quickly?

--PT

--------------------------

13 May 05 -- A response to "Kook"

Jenny,

I don't know if I know your dad, but I do know I don't want to know your dad. What I would like to say "how dare you demean the abuse I and many others went through for years!" I was 4 years old when my parents joined the church and I was 21 when I left. All I can remember about my childhood (other than what my parents or my sister tell me) are the beatings, the night mares you wake up. I have been out of the church for almost 30 years and I'm 50 years old and I still have night mares. The good times I do remember is when I was with my grandmother, who was not a member. My parents are no longer in the church but still have the same ideas about how things should be. They still try to run my life and tell me "I owe them" their love and respect. I have a hard time being in the same room with them, talking to them to hugging them. As all children I thought my dad (daddy) was the smartest and could do no wrong. They told me I was worthless, stupid and wouldn't amount to anything! They also told me that my son would be the heart break of our lives and would be in prison before he was 21.

Today I am very happily married, have been to the same man for almost 30 years. We have 1 son, 25 years old, who has ADHD with Learning Disabilities, he is getting ready to take Fire Fighter 1 KS State Board Exams in a week. He then plans on going on to First Responder. He graduated 76th in a class of 196 kids. He is well liked in the community. My husband is Chief of Police in the town we live in and I work for an Insurance Company which I've been employed for 14 years. In 1999 I received the employee of the month. Some failure I was, huh?

I was asked once if I ever hit my son, I said "I've bopped" him upside the head or I've swatted him, but I have NEVER beat him! I told myself I would not do that.

I still have a lot of issues with my parents, the church, ministers (of which I know/knew a lot of them personally). Dean. Blackwell, I spent a couple of summers in his home in KC. Gerald Waterhouse who visited the small church we attended frequently, Don Lawson, who I was friends with his daughter Denise. Kenneth Westby, Jeff Booth who married my husband and I. Terry Johnson, who we grew up with and thought we knew. My sister was his sister's best friend. I could go on and on, but you know, I'm not proud of knowing these people.

I was a deacons daughter, so we were told we had to be better than other kids and be good examples. I thought I had "friends" in the church, but the day I was married was the last time I really saw or spoke to them. Don't read anything into that, I am NOT sorry!

What I am sorry about is when I read of a person telling the story of how he/she was taken out of services to the "Spanking Tent" and thinking to myself, "That's me!" I'm sorry for all of you who are still involved in one of the spin off groups, what ever it is it's still the WCG. HWA and GTA are still running those peoples lives, even from their graves. When I heard of GTA's death I got on the Internet to find out what he died of. I wanted it to have been a very slow hideous death, where he suffered for months. Boy was I disappointed!

If it weren't for sites like this for us to spout off, we would hold things in until we bust. I know, I was almost there when I found this site a few months ago.

You have just as much right to speak your mind as I do mine, I do not resent you for it, but I do pity you for your blindness.

I'm going to quit before this turns into a novel. Demeaning our abuse is like demeaning the Jews, or the Black People. Granted mine (I can't speak for others) wasn't as bad as theirs but don't you tell me what it was like. I lived it!!!

klg

--------------------------

11 May 05

This was not meant to be published, per say, but do with it what you will...

My name is Jared England. I grew up in the WCG in small-town Missouri. I spent the first 20 years of my life as a child of parent members. I was lucky enough to be baptized the same day as my one year-old son. I now am happily married to a woman who grew up Presbyterian and has taken me in wholeheartedly. She has shown me what true love and faith is. Stumbling upon your website has brought about a flood of memories and emotions. I will visit the site more when I have the time and ability. I must tell you that while some of the "You know you grew up in the WCG if..." are VERY funny, some are EXTREMELY sad. I do pray for those that are still hurt by the rise and fall of the WCG.

Thanks for the laughs.

Jared

-------------------------

10 May 05 -- You Might Have Grown Up WCG if...

1. Your minister told your mother to kick out the
unbelieving son who had returned home after he was
injured in a car wreck.

2. Your minister told your mother to let her car get
repossessed because it was not right for a widow to
drive a new car... (a Plymouth Horizon)

3. Your minister, Richard Rand, stated he would still
be selling used cars but this paid better and he only
had to work one day a week

4. You ever heard a sermon about not wearing pink
shirts.

5. You worked all day Sunday washing cars to make
money for YOU and your minister lost it all in a
pyramid scheme.

6. You snuck out the back window of your house to get
some apples you hid in the shed so you wouldn't starve
on the day of atonement.

7. The only friends you still have in adult life are
former cult members.

8. You actually believe that you should talk to a
minister about your marital problems to seek
"spiritual advice".

9. you turned down college scholarships because it was
to a Methodist College. You turned down jobs because
they required you to work on the Sabbath!

10. You sold your 1969 Chevelle convertible to chase
half way around the world to find a mate so that you
would not be unequally yolked! "Scotland, Met her at
the feast!"

11. You discovered that the locals at the Lake of the
Ozarks always looked forward to the FOT because the
church chicks always put out.

12. You went to a liquor store in Lake Ozark and found
the shelves bare.

13. You walked 3 miles from the back of a parking lot
after sleeping the night in a cold tent during a
rainstorm to sit for four hours taking notes about how
not to wear pink shirts.

14. You have ever been told you have a bad attitude!

15. You actually left a vibrant college town to drive
4 hours cross country to go to a different church
hoping to find a date.

16. You surf the web looking for signs of others who
have as f#@*'ed up a life as you do!

17. Old friends still call you to tell you about the
end of days and being prepared and the Beast is
coming.

18. You realize you could just keep typing.....

Ben and Pamela

PS -- and last but not least:

you may have grown up WCG if you have ever been told
to leave church for wearing a pink shirt!

Excellent list! Thanks.... And how true!

--PT

--------------------------

9 May 05

I just wanted to say I really appreciate the painful truth website. Although I wasn't raised in the "cult", I did receive quite a bit of abuse from my catholic dad, and had to deal with it for almost 15 years, so I know where most people are coming from with the sentiments towards church/religious people and despising them. It's too bad most people can't see or feel or know "why" you don't just "get over it". The stuff sticks with you for a lifetime, impossible to let go. Anyways, just wanted to say hello, I enjoy the articles, and keep it coming!

Dan W

Thanks Dan!

--PT

------------------------

9 May 05

I am reading all of the AR articles and I am near the end now. I intend to read everything on the site eventually.

I thank all of you for publishing these things and keeping this information alive and available to everyone via the internet.

My wife and I spent more that 25 years in that cult. Thanks to information published on this site we have been able to see the filthy fruits bred by this religious scam and the pain it has caused. Otherwise our minds would still be as corrupted and brainwashed as the "From a Kook" letter writer's sadly is.

In our case we finally opened the Bible and read it without the Armstrong slant. Armstrong from the beginning of our brainwashing back in the seventies had become like an idol and we believed his religious interpretation. An idol he had become in our minds and we believed every false thing he said.

Once he was flushed out of our hearts and the toxic waste he taught was gone there was nothing between us and what the bible really says especially Galatians and other Pauline writings. It is apparent Armstrong, United et al are probably under a curse since they teach another gospel but thats their problem.

I do identify with many of the horror stories here and could tell my own as well. I sometimes get a little angry looking over my old budget books and seeing that ten percent of gross salary taken off the top, then another ten for feast and the 3rd yrs another 10%. Not to mention offerings as well.

I could ill afford it, we drove an old hack of a car we could see the road going by through the floor boards, on our way to the feast. We did indeed put ourselves under a financial curse supporting the Armstrong lifestyle.

I do hope people like kook stop defending this biblically toxic, polluted teaching of the Armstrongs and step out from behind the veil that is still covering their minds as ours were.

I personally am extremely grateful for this site because when I do look back and get a little angry at how I could have been such a fool. I come to this site and it is like an aspirin that relieves pain. There are unfortunately more victims being made by these religious rustlers.

I am especially happy for people that saw the light years ago and have been free from Armstrong bondage many more years than I have. I do pity young people like kook though who may never escape that curse.

I believe this site has helped pull many out of the fire.

Best Regards,

Peter

PS; Feel free to edit anything mispellings etc. as I am not perfect. It's also late so mistakes happen.

" ...believe this site has helped pull many out of the fire."

Thank you Peter.... Much appreciated.

--PT

-------------------------

8 May 05

I know I am not the most popular person over at The Painful Truth, but I
would like to make you a sincere offer, not for my own aggrandizement, but
because it is something outrageous in the church of gods which is an
unbelievable injustice. You may copy the whole thing without attribution. In
addition, if you have room on your web site and feel it is appropriate, you
can have the whole audio transcript to go along with this Transcript of the
UCG Stalking trial:

http://md.cultabuse.com/Stalker_Court_Case.html

Respectfully,
Douglas Becker

You're ok with me, and most folks here, Douglas. Chill out, dude...

--PT

-------------------------

7 May 05

Hi, I am sending you a collection of my own personal "You might have beens..." for the "You might have been a member of the WCG if..." forum. Please keep my email address (which, obviously, contains my name) private and just post the comments. While I feel some annoyance at various church members and authority figures, I have no wish to single anyone out for hurt or humiliation. Thanks for giving us a place to vent!

• Your introduction to the concept of bestiality was provided by your minister in a fairly standard sermon -- and you were four!

• You've ever heard your minister ask the congregation to consider what if, when the time came to "flee", it was he who decided who boarded the planes.

• You had an opinion on whether or not Herbert W. Armstrong should use the title "Apostle".

• You actually felt reasonably certain that you were a direct descendant of Abraham.

• You've had someone mistake you for a Jew -- and weren't offended.

• You felt guilty for not attending Wednesday night Bible Study. (They know who you are and where you live!)

• You could never look at the "greeter" the same way again once you learned he was actually taking attendance (...and where were you last Sabbath?)

• You knew someone who's parents were ordered by the church to divorce -- and did!

• You thought the worst insult you could apply to someone was to call them "worldly".

• You know how to pronounce, and actually have pronounced "Chag Somayach" -- and you know what it means!

• You've had to wash someone's feet.

• You've had to let someone wash your feet.

• You've ever been ordered to stay in your friend's bedroom and be silent for three hours because her father had to "take Passover".

• You've ever had a cookie snatched from your mouth in mid-bite because it had brown sugar in it.

• You can extol the virtues of goat's milk.

• Your eardrums burst from infection and still it was ix-nay on the antibiotics. (Annointing! It's the alternative antibiotic.)

• You know more than one person who refused cancer treatments believing that seeking treatment showed a lack of faith -- and they are all now dead...of cancer.

• Your grandmother would not allow you to listen to "scary stories" and instead put you to bed with tales of "the coming tribulation" and "the lake of fire".

• Your grandmother tried to convince you that it would be great to be a spirit being because then you could fly. (Apparently this was the chief benefit, because she could think of no other when pressed. Hel-lo!? Can you say airplanes?)

• Your were given WCG Bible Stories --complete with Basil Wolverton illustrations-- when learning to read as a pre-schooler. (Oh! The horror!)

• You were able to recite the books of both the Old and New Testaments by the time you were five.

• You were, as a child, generally unfamiliar with animated cartoons since most of them ran on Saturday mornings.

• You didn't know the words to any Christmas carols.

• Your darkest secret fantasy involved being able to decorate a Christmas tree.

• You recognized the ominous portent in that “Santa” and “Satan” could be composed of the same letters.

• No adult you knew could let a cheerful “Merry Christmas” pass uncorrected.

• You went on a winter drive to admire the results of a spectacular ice storm and had to hear repeatedly from the front seat, “God said it would be this way in the end time.”

• You had the word "Tomorrow" inscribed on your class ring because you hadn't been allowed to participate in any sports or clubs.

• You were discouraged from pursuing higher learning because it might undermine your faith.

• You were told that anyone with exceptional talent “must have a demon”. (Case in point, Patsy Cline. By gum, I’ll bet it was that demon that crashed her plane!!)

• You were a "church cheerleader" and still consider it to be the foremost lapse in judgment of your life.

• You had to perform cheers in the name of sportsmanship that actually encouraged the other team to win (and usually they did).

• You've been told to "give" or "share" a date with some poor slob who would never otherwise experience anything remotely resembling one. (Where I come from, this is called teasing and has resulted in more than one of my friends being stalked!)

• You didn't see anything wrong with a 37-year-old man to asking a 16-year-old girl on a date.

• You've been on a chaperoned date in the latter part of the twentieth century.

• You felt a lot more peer pressure to be baptized than to have sex or experiment with drugs.

• You recall with relief the fact that you were never actually were baptized and suspect you dodged a major bullet there.

• You spend too much time reading "You might have been a member if..." and thinking, "Man, I should really get some therapy for this..."

And a few more from my friends…

• You worried that you might never have an opportunity to get married, have sex (not necessarily in that order) or have kids because The World Tomorrow was probably coming…tomorrow…

• By the time you were six, you knew that The Unpardonable Sin was necking and apparently it was the real reason that people had cars.

• You felt very guilty during the sermon about what you did last night, and yet again, about what you were going to do tonight.

• You were the only 13-year-old in your class who could (had they ever for any bizarre reason been asked) inform classmates at large that they would not be going to “Hell”, but instead to “Gehenna” (aka “The Lake of Fire”), where, to their great relief we must be sure, they would not burn forever, but would be rapidly flambe’d and forgotten.

• You struggled to keep your fashionably short skirt pulled down to a regulation-below-the-knees length around parents or church members.

• Your book bag doubled as a closet for your more stylish apparel, considered by parents and church members to be too “worldly”.

• You worried during services that the member next to you would probably be among the 144,000 taken to Petra and would be left behind.

• You thought that the editor of “Who’s Who of Bizarre Cult Religions” (not the actual name of the publication) must be under under Satan’s influence since he included the WWCG.

• You did not recognize an intellectual dilemma in being told not to read literature or contact anyone affiliated with the publication of literature that cast an unflattering light on the WWCG (articles or books that probably served up the real “Plain Truth”).

Laura H____

---------------------------

7 May 05

I just happened on your site and was very (can't think of the right word). I agree with you and plan on reading your site more in depth so I can submit something. Oh my God do I know about cults, it seems like I was a cult magnet as I rambled through life looking for the truth, something to believe in, and a cause to live for. I was in groups like the White Panther Party that was a radical left cult and Victory Outreach a religious cult that has support from President Bush but they were the worst because the Pastor's spoke for God and they God they spoke for didn't seem to be that nice. It gave me a pretty bad taste for religion as a matter of fact organized groups of all kinds make me nervous. Could you look at my web site? www.focusonyourlife.net The first page uses Christian metaphors I'm not trying to push Cristianity I am trying to make the contrast of what the bible says and what many people preach these days not push Christianity, I don't believe in Christianity at all past the possibility that Jesus was a person that pissed off the powers that be and got himself killed.

My email is denison9@sbcglobal.net this is my wifes address she was listening to jazz on the web and I didn't want to accidentaly disconnect her.

John E. Denison

-----------------------

4 May 05

Dear Mr. Tony Badillo

I hereby greet you in the name of Jesus Christ.

Let me introduce myself to you. My name is Rupchand Shievprasad. I am an Indo-guyanese immigrant living in the U.S.A.

I had been reading the plain truth magazine since from 1981. I became a baptized member of the WCG since 1991. I left the WCG in 1993 and become part of GCC. The GCC broke-up and I never re-apply to any church organization to become a member. Nevertheless I still receive literature from LCG. Many times I want to become part of LCG but so far make no attempt to do so. The major reason being that it is too dependent on money to preach the gospel. What I mean is it keep asking for more money in the form of tithes and greater offerings to get on more TV stations to spread the gospel. I believe that indeed the gospel will be going out on the TV but not by human monetary contributions but with power in the forms of healings and signs and wonders in tandem with scripture orientation and not like those of the false prophet. The point I want to make is I am offended with the human efforts and money being the strength and power of LCG.

I have read an article by you on tithing and is impressed with the pointers. I also would like to know your opinion about inter-racial marriages. Furthermore, what are your views on weekly and high holy-day Sabbaths. If you do not believe in keeping the Sabbaths, then it is not necessary to reply me. I would be happy to know where I can get in contact with your brethren in New York City so as to assemble for the Sabbath services.

My address is 2763 Creston Avenue, Bronx, NY, 10468.

I am eagerly awaiting for an email from you or a reply.

I close my letter in Jesus' name,

yours sincerely,

Rupchand S___

Harold S_____

Has the world gone mad, or is it just me?

--PT

-------------------------

3 May 05

Thank you for a great web site. Many of us are still
in the healing process.

Many of us who grew up in "The Church" miss the
"family" relationship we had. I still keep in contact
with many of the poor dolts I grew up with. We had no
other life outside of the cult.

My experiences with religion since then have been
disappointing at best. I guess I see them all for the
worst that they can be. Having seen it at it's worst I
still see those elements in other churches. I have no
use for any religious organization now.

I have many friends who are literally scarred for life
by the experiences they had.

"The Churches" hierarchy of people with money and the
loathing of the lower class made many people like my
mother feel worthless. My impoverished condition in my
youth was largely due to the fact that the church had
caused the break up of my family, my father being
"unequally yoked". I was then considered to be
"fatherless".

I appreciate your apology page and I wonder if people
like Richard Rand, and Duke and the other ministers,
and elders who made us feel like so much trash have
any idea the misery they wrought.

Growing up on 3rd tithe we were considered welfare
recipients. The horrible stories I could tell are
numerous.

I have never been a big believer in therapy but there
are many people still dragging around the burden of
WWCG.

My eldest brother graduated from AC and is still
preaching part time for them, for free in Northern
Missouri. After all this crap he is still working for
them for free.

Armstrong with his incestuous affair with his
daughter, and his taking of a young bride after the
death of his wife were all hushed. The local ministers
used the people to build them houses. The money
grubbing was astounding. Our local minister in
Columbia, MO. Richard Rand actually invested the Y.O.U
money in some pyramid scheme and lost it. All the time
they just told us to pay more. This creep was a former
used car salesman who actually said from the podium
that he'd "still be selling used cars, but the pay was
better and he only had to work one day a week." But we
still wrote the checks!

I swear the next time I hear someone say you have a
bad attitude I'm killing them!

If the deacons kid was drinking beer on the float trip
and I made notice of it I was informed I had a bad
attitude. If I had a pink shirt on, I had a bad
attitude. If I questioned one of the directives or
arbitrary rulings by one of our anointed local elders.
I had a bad attitude. This was all used to mold and
shape our minds and control us.

Any little local dolt with a bent for authority would
be appointed to some menial position so he could usurp
his dominance over the sheep! Keeping us all in line
and following the rules. Often this would turn into a
power trip and be horribly abused. But they could do
no wrong, we just had bad attitudes!

One of my other brothers would like to write a book. I
have an interest in this also. Our experiences may
help others to avoid the pitfalls that caused this
mess. It is humorous that he is now cleaning out his
attic and selling the propaganda material Armstrong
wrote on E-Bay. It is amazing what it will bring. My
guess is other people wanting to rake in huge sums of
money are studying Armstrongs ways to see if they can
duplicate his success. Otherwise I can't immagine why
anyone would want to read this tripe!

Sadly, I realize that this book idea is really an
outreach to overcoming the f-ed up lives we led and
the scars it left behind.

Do you know of any blogs or chat sites where former
cult members can commiserate? Maybe I can find some
old frined if they haven't commited suicide by now!

Sincerely,
D. Ben E____

"Do you know of any blogs or chat sites where former
cult members can commiserate? Maybe I can find some
old frined if they haven't commited suicide by now!"

Certainly!

Start right on the Main Page of the PT website, and click on the PT Forum button!

--PT

------------------------

28 Apr 05

I know God exists from divine intervention. Jesus is Lord.

1)Sept 2003: I was down Pittsburgh, and I heard a voice that said,"Good
News". It confused me, but I felt compeled to come home to my old church.
2)When I arrive home and held my dads hands inside the Church(he is grounds
keeper, and just so happened to be there), and profess to him and God my
love, he went up and brought me down a Bible, The Good News Bible.
3)I have never heard of this Bible before in my life, the "Good News" I was
spoken to is manifested in physical form.

I don't claim to be a prophet,but I fully know God exists as explained in
the bible. If you read the bible, you'll find truth.

There is no need to unsubscribe because I won't send you anything again.
If you have questions, or want to discuss ways to bring more people to the
faith, I have set up a discussion board at:
http ://forums.delphiforums.com/SeriousEvangelc/start

If you still have time to read, I broke the book of Proverbs down into an
outline format. Its good to get a lot of information fast, but I still
suggest you read the bible in full.

Gee thanks. Just what I wanted...another email from a kook who claims to "know" God.

Check yourself into the nearest clinic, sir, for a full workup before it's too late...

--PT

------------------------

28 April 05

Dear Herbie Warmstrong.com,

I went through your “Herbert Armstrong's False Prophesies” with the corresponding pages in the Plain Truth or Good News and I couldn’t find the text to back it up. This is NOT a good thing for me as I’m researching the use of End-Time tactics for mind control.

So far, I did find in the Plain Truth, July 1934 issue this statement: “Mussolini is starting a war that shall end at ARMAGEDDON! It is the start of the final WORLD WAR! It is NOW STARTING!” That was a pretty bold statement & totally false! Help me out here! I’m trying to save a friend who is in a splinter group with an Armstrong copy cat leading.

Below is 2 links to back issues of PT & GN.

The “PLAIN TRUTH” back issues:

http: //www.coghomeschool.org/site/cog_archives/plain_truth/COG_Library_Plain_Truth.htm

The “GOOD NEWS” back issues:

http:/ /www.coghomeschool.org/site/cog_archives/good_news/COG_Library_Good_News.htm

I have a question to ask: Do the Elders make any money? Do they draw a salary from the tithes of the congregation?

Thanks,

____

P.S. Please don’t publish my initials or email address until I’ve finished my attempt at an intervention. Thanks!

"Do the Elders make any money? Do they draw a salary from the tithes of the congregation?"

I don't believe so. But maybe someone can set that question to rest for us?

--PT

-------------------------

28 April 05

Bill Fairchild

Bill was a fairly foolish child,

To trust that Herbert 'A.'

But Bill he's still a foolish child,

Until this very day.

Bill can write scripture - so he thinks -

His language really stinks!

Let's see Bill bring his words to pass,

He must be green as grass.

---------------------------

With best wishes,
Peter Griffiths (Tidbury Green, near Birmingham, England).
Tel. 01564-826685

Peter, did you misplace your medicine again?

--PT

-------------------------

27 April 05 -- From A Kook

A few things.... and feel free to publish what I write - but I have saved
this letter to let you know that if you are going to publish my e-mail...
you better publish it all and not take it out of context.

I just wanted to say I am deeply saddened by your story. The abuse that you
say you recieved should not have happened. However, no one is perfect and
people abuse power in ALL organizations.

I would also like to say that I know several people who were lied to by
their mommies and daddies that Santa clause was real.... they got over it.
At least your mother was sincere in that what she thought WCG was teaching
the truth - I would think you would have bigger issues if she knew that WCG
was not true and she still led you on.

What I also think is sad is that you must attack WCG as a whole, and you
don't realise that there are some really good people there, but heck... I'm
just a kook so what would I know.

I'm not from WCG but from UCG... in fact, I'm the daughter of one of the
presidential nominees that are being attacked right now on the Ambassador
Watch website. If people knew how incredibly hurtful it is that my dad is
being attacked when I have known him for 23 years of my life and KNOW who he
really is, I wonder if people would write what they do. Also, I just found
out who it was that wrote that about him and I am even more saddened because
that person was considered a good friend of the family and had flown over to
the U.S. with his mother to visit us after we left melbourne - but I guess
my dad bullied him into doing that, as that is his opinion of my father (oh
well, I'll still think of the good memories I have of with that man and his
family). I also wonder about all the other presidential nominees children...
and if they are hurt by any of this. You see, other people's dads can go to
work and if someone has a problem with them - they say it to their face, and
it is left at work. The dad can come home to a safe environment, where there
is no criticism of him or his family. But in this job, dad gets attacked and
it affects the whole family. People like to broadcast everything about them
on the internet. But you know what? I'm over it.

I hope that this e-mail has been written well enough for you not to add any
[sic]s in it, and that my english is good enough to read.

From a kook,
(and apparently an uneducated and illiterate kook because I defend what you
call "armstrongism")
Jeannette H____

JohnB responded in the PT May Editorial and with this:

Dear Jenny,

Thank you for writing to The Painful Truth. The editor is currently on vacation, so this is John B standing in for him. If you wish a reply from him directly, I’m certain he’ll be happy to do so as soon as he’s home.

To make sure nothing in your letter is overlooked, I’m going to reproduce it here and then answer point by point. My replies will be in boldface.

Your letter:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Not to worry. We don’t edit for space or content. We don’t even delete dirty words. Anything you write will, with your permission, be published exactly as you wrote it. As for context, we’ll let the letter speak for itself.

I just wanted to say I am deeply saddened by your story. The abuse that

You [sic] say you recieved [sic] should not have happened. However, no one is perfect and people abuse power in ALL organizations.

It isn’t just “my” story, or Mike’s story. These pages were written by dozens of people. The abuse was real, not just something we “say” we received. The fact that so many people who visit here relate to what they read, and comment on it, is proof that 1) we didn’t just make it up, and 2) it wasn’t just an occasional isolated event.

No, people aren’t perfect (and we don’t expect them to be); yes, people do abuse power in all organizations. By stating the obvious, you have unwittingly admitted that the abuse did occur. Thank you.

I would also like to say that I know several people who were lied to by

their mommies and daddies that Santa clause [sic] was real.... they got over it.

Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, End-time Apostle...all fairy tales. The first three are harmless, the fourth is not.

As for “getting over it”...? That’s a very dangerous minefield for you to step into. I don’t know how many articles you’ve read on this website, but before you submit your next letter I suggest you read this one:

http://www.hwarmstrong.com/ get-over-it-reply.htm

At least your mother was sincere in that what [sic] she thought WCG was teaching the truth - I would think you would have bigger issues if she knew that WCG was not true and she still led you on.

I do believe she was sincere. She dedicated the last 31 years of her life to Armstrongism, and studied him a decade or so before that. And yet, not long before she died, she confided to me that she had never believed that Petra was the place of safety, or that the church would even go to such a place. I was horrified, and not a little outraged. I had lived in terror of the Tribulation all my life...and she didn’t even believe it?

When I left the cult, she wanted to know why. I showed her the documentation that had proved to me that Armstrong was a fraud. She read the entire stack, and her comment to me was, “Looks like Herbert was quite a charlatan!”

So, to answer your question, I’m a little ambivalent about it, don’t really know what to think. Mom died less than a year later, so I can’t ask her.

What I also think is sad is that you must attack WCG as a whole, and you don't realise that there are some really good people there, but heck... I'm just a kook so what would I know.

I don’t think anyone here at The Painful Truth has ever denied that there are some truly wonderful people still trapped in the cults. They are the reason we exist. We are not “out to get” them, rather we are here to rescue them, realizing that we can do nothing for them until they request it.

I'm not from WCG but from UCG... in fact, I'm the daughter of one of the presidential nominees that are [sic] being attacked right now on the Ambassador Watch website.

I’ve seen the list of candidates, but truthfully, I don’t remember a single name. Nor do I care. I found the papal election much more interesting. I think Benedict XVI rocks, and I’m not even Catholic.

If people knew how incredibly hurtful it is that my dad is being attacked when I have known him for 23 years of my life and KNOW who he really is, I wonder if people would write what they do.

I have to admit, that would really suck. But you’re not alone; how do you think the Bush daughters feel on a daily basis, or the Kerry daughters? What about Chelsea Clinton, or Dick Cheney’s children? It’s the price you pay for being the child of a high-profile figure. If your dad wanted to change occupations, I think most of that condemnation would probably go away.

Also, I just found out who it was that wrote that about him and I am even more saddened because that person was considered a good friend of the family and had flown over to the U.S. with his mother to visit us after we left melbourne [sic] - but I guess my dad bullied him into doing that, as that is his opinion of my father

I haven’t read the article you speak of, so I can’t comment on it.

(oh well, I'll still think of the good memories I have of with that man and his family).

Yes, you mustn’t display a bad attitude, or you might develop a root of bitterness. Here’s another article for you:

http://www.hwarmstrong.com/ whenforgive.htm

I also wonder about all the other presidential nominees [sic] children...and if they are hurt by any of this. You see, other people's dads can go to work and if someone has a problem with them - they say it to their face, and it is left at work. The dad can come home to a safe environment, where there is no criticism of him or his family. But in this job, dad gets attacked and it affects the whole family. People like to broadcast everything about them on the internet.

Other people’s dads generally don’t rule thousands of people with a rod of iron, “counsel” them without being trained to do so, and make personal, financial, even sexual decisions for them. Other people’s dads don’t have the authority to demand money from thousands of people and condemn them to hell (disfellowship) if they can’t afford it.

Let’s be frank here – your dad is a COG minister in a church that embraces Armstrong theology; I’ve never met your dad, nor do I know anything about him, but if he does his job willingly, he probably isn’t innocent. He is APPOINTED BY GAWD and has absolute authority over those under him. He isn’t used to having anyone talk back to him, but now, thanks to the internet, the crap is coming the other way, and he doesn’t like it. (The internet is a wonderful invention [thank you, Al Gore!]; for the first time in history, victims of Armstrongism can have a voice.)

The man you know, the kind, gentle, loving father, is not the man others see. You’ve never stood in their shoes; you’ve never had him blast you with the weight of pyramidal, top-down authority behind him. You’ve never been crushed under his weight or flayed by his tongue. Why? Because he loves you... you’re his little girl. But everyone else? They’re just sheep.

But you know what? I'm over it.

Of course you are. That’s why you’re crying about it.

I hope that this e-mail has been written well enough for you not to add

Any [sic]s in it, and that my english [sic] is good enough to read.

Not more than a dozen [sic]s. Not bad for an active cult member, and certainly better than most. I congratulate you!

From a kook,

(and apparently an uneducated and illiterate kook because I defend what You [sic] call "armstrongism" [sic])

Hey, there’s always hope. You sound young, so maybe some day you’ll grow up...and wake up.

Jeannette H____

Another comment on this went, "Jeez, what did you do to deserve that outburst? The lady is talking about Bill Bradford. His son also wrote a cheerful little response which I put in the mailbag in full and without comment - heck, not even a [sic] ;-) . Daughters of the Holy Ministry aren't used to seeing their fathers treated as human beings I guess."

Gavin - http://www.ambas sadorwatch.co.nz/

--PT

-----------------------

26 April 05

-----Original Message-----
From: Clarke, M___
Sent:   25 April 2005 13:15
To:     'editor@hwarmstrong.com '
Subject:        Thanks and query

Hello

I sit here with tears in my eyes. I'm a 50 year old Brit in WCG from 1977-2001. My wife and I are going through counselling with the excellent British charity Relate over my being a total bastard to her in the 'early' years of our 22 year marriage. (She was second generation. Hunting drove up to her Council flat (Projects 'appartment') in South London 45 years ago in his Jaguar and disfellowshipped her darling, lovely dad for smoking.) Unlike Marvin the Paranoid Android in H2G2 and somewhat like a contrapuntal Bach Fugue it both gets better and worse as we move either direction in time, but worst is backwards : ) She is so angry and I have to take it.

I went through the Kessler Letter and in fact corresponded with Jack 10 years ago and other stuff from your site or sites like it. He is a good man.

My wife has only just started to read your site ...

Last Friday, for the first time and all over the week-end, even after knowing for years about the incest, I started cursing the sick, deluded old f*cker (my company's email ISP will probably censor the unexpurgated version) in those terms nearly 20 years after his death. I'll repent I'm sure! I'm a semi-detached Anglican nowadays, wishing for more. Or rather less detachment!

It was something Jeannie said. About Meredith being Pervert's pimp. That made me angry for the FIRST time would you believe. Might I ask you to confirm the refernce please?

Please don't encourage me otherwise or I'll open the floodgates.

Sincere reagrds, God bless you - I know, I know! - Martin

(Postscript:"Dah-dah: found it, thanks: http://www.amba ssadorwatch.co.nz/meredith.htm "

-------------------------

23 April 05

Dear Mr. Minton,

Thank you for maintaining this important website. Please forward this to John O., regarding his recent essay on the Hawaiian leper colony.

Best regards,

Kathleen Kakacek

Dear John,

I haven’t written to you in several years, so you may not remember me. But I wanted to commend you for your essay about the leper colony and the work of Father Damien. I was saddened, but not at all surprised, that none of the ministers who visited you in Hawaii would go with you to the colony. It reminded me of when we got a Habitat for Humanity chapter organized in our community, and I told our WCG pastor about it. Even though John Halford had written some articles in the Plain Truth about it, the pastor was completely unfamiliar with it. So I told him how it was a program for very low income families to own their own homes through sweat equity and community partnership; how the land, labor, and materials are sometimes donated, or sold at very low cost; how there is zero interest on the mortgages, etc. The pastor looked puzzled at my enthusiasm, and asked me, “Well, then who benefits?” After the WCG realized it was not breaking the Sabbath to do good works on Saturdays, I asked our next pastor if we could schedule a single half workday for the congregation to help build one of the homes. I explained that since services didn’t start until 3:30 p.m., we could work from 8:00 – 2:00 on the house, and be back in time for church. The pastor hedged, the elders coughed, and finally one of them laughed nervously and said that although it wasn’t wrong (anymore) to work on the Sabbath, if there was a need, we shouldn’t plan for such an event. The pastor and elders sighed with relief. Another bullet dodged.

Kathleen Kakacek

---------------------

21 April 05 --- JohnB gets published again!

This is just to let you know that John B.'s article "When should you forgive?" has been copied here:

This is a "spam free" board at the forum which is here:

Thank you very much for allowing me to reprint this article.

Regards.
Elizabeth

---------------------

18 April 05

I’ve been reading your articles for some time now and found them for the most part quite helpful and informative. Some of your readers may know me but most probably won’t. I actually attended Imperial School from 1958 to 1968 and attended Big Sandy Ambassador until graduating in 1972. Oh, the stories I could tell! I’ll not waste everyone’s time with all of them. Just suffice it to say, there were many a sad day in my life during that time. I was one of those students who didn’t get his name read the last forum before graduation to go into the “field”. Embarrassment would be the least of my concerns. It was more like total humiliation. You see, I was unfortunate enough to come to Big Sandy already in love with a coed who had attended her senior year at Imperial in ’68. She was the daughter of a minister from Arizona at the time. We went all through the 4 years of college in trouble because we wouldn’t break up. Even then we knew of other couples that were sneaking out to Gladewater or other surrounding towns to go to motels and do their things but we were never in that boat. Yes, we did “see” each other too much (by their rules) which meant we actually were seen talking more than once a semester and we stayed in love even though the authorities sent her to Pasadena for our junior year “so that you’ll learn your lesson and realize you don’t really love each other”. It made me a bitter person until we saw the light and left the church.

I worked in the transportation dept. on campus and in my junior and senior years would take the school’s trucks to the neighboring cities to pick up supplies for the campus. Most of the time there were the usual nuts and bolts variety of supplies but then would come the times the Armstrongs’ were anticipated coming to campus. I was always amazed at the amount of beer and other beverages that were bought on these occasions. I had to make a separate run to the booze store then go back after unloading the stash for the usual stuff. It made me miss many a class but that didn’t seem to bother anyone but me.

After college we got married on a shoestring. No honeymoon. Right to work. Then a year later we moved to Baltimore , where her dad was the minister. Unbelievable set of unfortunate circumstances. During college, I got pretty close (as close as a student could become) to GTA. Played basketball against him (we were about the same size so we played the same position and usually guarded each other). Actually, I was very found of him in college. During my wife’s (past tense, we’re divorced now) exile in Pasadena , he actually let me ride along in the Falcon to Pasadena to see her and my family during semester break. I always thanked him for that every time I saw him afterwards. But I do regress. The things I heard from Diane’s (that was my wife) Dad about GTA really hurt me. But now I Know 99.9% of them were true. Her parents both drank themselves to death some years ago.

In Baltimore , after her Dad was transferred, (seemed like headquarters didn’t like to keep any Pastor in the same congregation more than about 5 years) a very down-to-earth minister named David Odar become our pastor. I say down to earth because of all the ministers I had contact with during my tenure in the WCG, I would have to say I could open up to him better than anyone. When he started opening up to me about problems in the church, I started putting 2 and 2 together and began to see the signs of the times. I couldn’t get out fast enough. In fact, when Dave and his wife Donna left, Roy Demerest came to town as Pastor. Well, you talk about opposites. I could not get along with him. Maybe it was me but I don’t think so. Anyway, I gave a sermonette on one Sabbath about what I considered a Christian to be. It included a statement about not being exclusive. That there could actually be other people in the world that are as or even more “Christian” than we are. Well, the flood gates opened. Without a word from Roy, just other people that had audiences with him, I knew it was my last sermonette. Then 2 weeks later, we went to Erie , Pa. where my wife’s brother was the pastor, came back on Monday and received a phone call from a Deacon friend (and I mean friend sincerely) that told us we were disfellowshipped and marked from the pulpit. I read where the only reason for disfellowshipping anyone was because they were causing trouble for others in the church, trying to sway others away and things like that. We hadn’t and haven’t since done anything of the like. We felt publicly humiliated and ashamed at the time. But it’s venting like this that helps clear the cobwebs.

Just one more thing I would like to say and then I won’t bore you any more. I was one grade ahead of Joe Tkach in Imperial. He didn’t attend Big Sandy, so after High School I lost track of him. I can’t say how shocked and I mean REALLY SHOCKED when I learned he was taking the reigns of the church. Like I said, I only knew him from High School but even he would tell you what a reprobate he was back then. Hopefully he has changed, as we all have, but my Mom is still a believer and if he is leading the church, all I can hope is that he doesn’t hurt any “little old ladies from Pasadena ”.

Thank you for letting me vent for a time. There may be a time in the future where I would feel like getting very specific with what I know and have seen, but right now, I don’t want to sound bitter by telling my whole story. Suffice it to say, getting the truth out has and will “save” more people than you know.

Thanks again,

Dave W_____

"getting the truth out has and will “save” more people than you know."

Absolutely, Dave. Thanks for your story!

--PT

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16 April 05

Dear John B and all,

Herewith my article:--

With best wishes,

Peter (422 Tilehouse Lane, Tidbury Green..B90 1PX, England).

Tel. 01564-826685

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RESTORING THE NEW TESTAMENT    - by Peter Griffiths.

The order of the books in most Bibles, today, is not the original order. This may come as a surprise. It certainly did to me. But when we look into it, it explains a lot.

                                     By hand of man it's been abused,
                                     Our Bible is a book confused...

But the New Testament is easily corrected. The 1st 5 books, and the last book, are correctly positioned. It's Paul's letters and the 7 general, or Jewish, epistles in the middle that have been transposed. Once this is corrected, it only remains to take out Hebrews from the end of Paul's letters and place it immediately after Thessalonians and before Timothy. And there you have it, the New Testament corrected in a nutshell.

Here then, in detail, is the correct order of the books of the New Testament. Firstly: Matthew; Mark; Luke; John; Acts. This is the 'Torah' of the New Testament, the first 5 books.

Then comes the 7 general epistles: James; Peter (1); Peter (2); John (1); John (2); John (3); and Jude. Notice that Jude, the 12th book, introduces Paul's letters. What Jude says makes so much more sense when we realise this. It was never intended to introduce Revelation. Notice the first thing Jude says is that salvation is common. Everybody has it. But that Christians must earnestly contend for the original faith. Notice they are not just to contend for the original faith; they must earnestly contend for the original faith! Something was seriously wrong with Christianity because of certain men who had crept in unawares and corrupted it...

Paul's letters, then, the later ones containing the final revelation to humans — the mature teachings — called the 'secret' or 'mystery', are: Romans; Corinthians (1); Corinthians (2); Galatians; Ephesians; Philippians; Colossians; Thessalonians (1); Thessalonians (2).

At this point note that Paul wrote 9 letters to 7 ecclesias (assemblies, congregations, or groups), and 4 letters to 3 individual persons. The 2nd group, at Corinth, and the 7th group, at Thessalonica, receiving 2 letters each. The 2 letters to the 7th (and final) group at Thessalonica deal with the end time.

Chapter 2 and verse 5 of Hebrews tells us that this letter deals with "the world to come." Logically and chronologically 'the world to come' immediately follows after the final 7th group. So Hebrews comes 10th in Paul's letters, and 22nd in the New Testament overall. This is very neat because the Hebrew alphabet also has 22 letters in it.

Finally, Paul's 4 letters to 3 individuals: Timothy (1); Timothy (2); Titus; and Philemon. This completes Paul's letters.

The last book of all in the book of books is Revelation. This is the 27th book of the New Testament. It takes scriptures from all over the Bible, putting them into the correct sequence.

The vast majority of New Testament manuscripts reflect this order of the books. Our New Testament is, essentially, an inspired commentary on the Old Testament. Peter said that a time of refreshment and a restoration of all things spoken by the holy prophets would take place just before the end of the age. (Acts 3:19-21) The words of those holy prophets are recorded in the Bible. The whole world needs a restored Bible.

                                     For far too long it's been ignored;
                                     The Bible needs to be restored.

FURTHER READING. For much more information on this subject, see: Restoring The Original Bible, by Dr E.L..Martin, published by Associates for Scriptural Knowledge. It's available via their web site at: www.askelm.com

                                      What progressive revelation,
                                      Follows from the restoration...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

END.

Peter.... I can't express how appreciative I am, as always, for your input...

-PT

-----------------------

13 April 05

And yet another religious scam:

Bill Fairchild

--------------------

13 April 05

I heard about this page a couple days ago and finally got around to actually checking it out just tonight. Anyway, I had a question:

Could Living CoG be compared to WWCG? I haven't looked around too much, so I'm not even sure if there is anyone still familiar with all the splinter groups, but as I was reading, I noticed that there was an awful lot of stuff that I can relate to. I only spent the first few years of my remembered life in WWCG before it broke down into Global and United.

Currently, I am 15, my parents are divorced (with plenty of the fault able to be directed toward our minister x_x), my mother disfellowshiped (thank God), and my dad a severe cultist. Up until just a few months ago have I started to assert that I don't give a damn about the church anymore, and only recently have such things like what I have seen stopped. Even still, some things happen. My sister, if she were any younger, would not be allowed to dye her hair or get peircings as frequently as she does, nor would I be able to attend Martial Arts.

Just in case you aren't familiar with LCG, which I'm sure you are, let me fill you in on how Roderick C. Meredith has been holding up HWA's legacy. Things haven't changed much. They're gentler, but still strict. You wouldn't be caught dead with any form of lard in your house. The only difference there is that we don't have regular inspections of our grocieries. Women are allowed to wear make-up and their hair long, but on saturday there are restrictions as to what kind and how much makeup may be used. For instance, you can put on lipstick or gloss, a little blush, a little masquera (sp?), and maybe a little eyeliner. However, if the minister, or anyone, for that matter, feels it is too "provacative," or any such b.s. thing, you will be made to remove it under penalty of being suspended. Short skirts aren't allowed. If it is above mid thigh level, you're in deep sh!t. Otherwise, it's good. Suit and ties are highly encouraged. So highly, in fact, that it almost seems like the rule.....

Many in the ministry feel they have the authority to "bind and loose" on Earth as if they were God. They think that anyone who disagrees is dissidant and is of Satan, so they are promptly disfellowshiped (one of my favorite ministers was just disfellowshipped recently for speaking out in truth. Makes you wonder). You can imagine that it is starting to turn into a hierarchy/dictatorship.

Aside from all of that, I must remark at how much I could relate to most of what I have read on this page so far, and how much that, if I couldn't relate to it, one of my siblings could. It was truly shocking..... I never thought of my church or its roots as evil, just overbearing. It actually almost hurts to say something like that.... Truth is truth.

I'd rather not give out my name, and I would =prefer= if my email could be kept private, but it's your website. Just please respect that while I don't mind a few comments (though I doubt I will get any beyond a simple response), I don't want a whole bunch of people asking me questions about my church, or "religion." It would be too much like going back to 3rd grade, lol.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and, if you did, respond.

Much appreciated,

anonymous.

Thoughts, anyone?

PT Editor

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12 April 05

http ://money.cnn.com/2005/04/12/news/midcaps/jesus_dolls/index.htm?cnn=yes

I can see it now:

Accessorize your Jesus doll with a cross and nails!! Lifelike blood comes out of hands and feet!!

*Crown of thorns not included

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11 April 05

Dear editor,

I have sent a couple of emails to "The Painful Truth" but never got an answer. What am I doing wrong?

Almon

Nothing...The PT Editor has been incredibly lazy the last couple of months....:) Bear with me...

--PT

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8 April 05

Here's a little piece from an American Catholic who does not think that the late pope JP2 was god's gift to humanity: htt p://www.counterpunch.org/connolly04052005.html

Bill Fairchild

-------------------

6 April 05

As activists await the views of a new pope on contraception, Rosario Ramirez, a 54-year-old woman who sells potato chips in hot sauce outside the Mexico City Cathedral, looks at it simply.

"It's one's own decision. I have nine children because I never used any birth control. God gives them to us, he decides, and we do our part," she said.

Yes, of course. It's God. Not a sp*rm & egg or anything...the child is spontaneously created by God. :sputter: That's as ludicrous as the cabbage patch, the stork, or a v*rgin birth. Oh, and PS! It's not taxpayers paying the price for overpopulation... God is providing that money, not the government... so go ahead and f*k unprotected like bunnies... because God will provide.

ARRRRRRGH!!!

People need a f*n reality check.

Best,

Heather

*Chuckle* Go get 'em, girl...

--PT

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6 April 05

Here's some cool writing....

cool anti-Pope, anti-Bono, anti-establishment, anti-culture rant: http: //www.counterpunch.org/oxman04052005.html

Bill F

---------------------------------

3 April 05

offering peace and grace to you, Elijah today will not be bound to any tradition, even Judaism, Christianity, or Islam to whom he has been commonly affiliated in the past. He will call upon the fullness of all traditions that respect god, earth, all creatures and things, and mysticism beyond even his own understanding

Ummm... Thanks! I think....

--PT

----------------------------------

2 April 05

I am an ex-member of the armstrong cult. I have enjoyed reading the pages on your website. For years I thought that I was the only ex-member in the world.

My mother began listening to H.W.Armstrong's "world tomorrow" broadcast on the radio back in the 1950's. When I was about 14 (1961) I started to read all the literature that was offered, the "Plain Truth" magazine was something that I looked forward to receiving each month. I went through the "correspondence course" in about 3 years. If I remember right, in those days there were 36-37 monthly lessons.

I was actually baptized into "the church" before my mother was. We were looking forward to the 1975 fulfillment of the "sure prophecy" of the "end time". Well, that didn't happen. I left the "one true church" in 1976 but my mother remained a "faithful" follower of "God's Apostle".

I joined the "Christadelphians" in 1978. They were strict and legalistic but at least there weren't any "tithes" to pay. I was Christadelphian (BUSF) for many years but I had the good fortune to read some atheist literature, Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith and Some Mistakes of Moses by Robert Ingersoll.

My mother died the same year that I joined the Christadelphians (1978), from refusing an operation that would have saved her life, thanks to "God's Ministers". I had to preside over the grave side service myself - God's Ministers were too busy to make the 120 mile trip from Little Rock to Helena, Arkansas. My mother's name was Lorene Miller (in case anyone remembers).

I have bad memories of Armstrongism - the unnecessary death of my mother, because she trusted that "God" would heal her. Our Apostle said so, therefore, it was true. She was a year younger than I am now! I still remember the church "gestapo" going through my house before "the days of unleavened bread" and throwing away my new toaster. The poverty that my family went through over the "tithes" really burns me up!

Here I am, an atheist with more bible knowledge than the pope! I had once thought of just starting a church of my own and bring those tithes in - but my conscience tells me to destroy religion in whatever little way I can.

Another cult continues from the WCG: http:/ /mikevinson.home.mindspring.com/index.html why not send him an email? His email address is: mikevinson@mindspring.com.

Check out my own little website, send me an email - I would like to hear from you.

Sincerely,

Almon

My Home Page:

http:/ /home.earthlink.net/~corkymc/

ALMON MCCANN

corkymc@earthlink.net

-----------------------------

2 April 05

These I haven't read that anyone has thought of, but when we went to the FOT, always camping at Big Sandy TX in the '50's, '60's & '70's, was...

if when traveling to the FOT and you see a camper, trailer or mobile home, you ask the question...I wonder if they are going to the FOT?
when your highlite was standing waiting to get on a bus to go roller skating.
sharing a bathroom with hundreds of other people.
walking to services in the rain or heat and fighting crowds of people.
when you were finally old enough to sit with a friend and not your parents.
when you wake up in the morning in a wet tent with spiders and snakes.

Kendra___

Absoultely, Kendra... Brings back MANY um...fond...memories:)

--PT

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