A collection of Facts, Opinions and Comments from survivors of Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong,  The Worldwide Church of God and it's Daughters.
Updated 06/01/08 06:32 PM PDT

Articles Pertaining To Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong and The Worldwide Church of God

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Email To The Editor
(Page 101)

03/21/08

An Open Letter to Phil Harris 

Hi Phil, 

I wanted to add some thoughts to the response by the Editor. He needs no help from me but It is rare to have a theist write in who has obviously taken some time to write an open letter free from theistic vitriol, ill-will, condemnation and superior airs. 

First off, it is interesting to hear from one who comes forward free from the baggage of WCG involvement. We ex-WCG folks have many hangups as we have been very badly damaged--some by the cult and some by the concept of judgmental Christianity itself. It's a big subject. 

You wrote that your god "is beyond the ability of man to prove" and that we should not expect to "be able to explain God." That is refreshing honesty. But it does beg for the reason one should believe in any god among the hundreds men have invented.  

I am pleased that you are able to admit that you do not know what you worship. This has been my charge in the past and it is refreshing when a theist admits it.

The Christian is in an indefensible position when he admits his ignorance about his god. I spent over 25 years in that position. It was somehow a badge of honor to have a god I could describe with only a string of attributes to prop it up. 

You made reference to the editor's agnosticism stemming from his experience. You said you could understand. I won't speak to that as that is his experience. But I note that many theists think that it is foolish to turn one's back on god just because of the actions of evil men.  

I am an atheist. That is I lack belief in any gods including the Christian one. I arrived at this position three years after my exit from the cult. I decided to read what atheists said about their position rather than accept what unprincipled men and the Bible said about atheists. I simply found that well thought out atheism had the better argument in the god/nogod debate. There is a wealth of good information on the internet these days concerning the debate. (An excellent recent book is The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.) 

You refer to "those who have been misdirected and disenchanted by what we would identify as false prophets/teachers." Well there are certainly those evil men in the cults as well as folks who have walked away from those same cults because of those evil representatives. My claim is to not think you are free simply because of walking away from any particular system of abuse. One can only claim freedom when religion itself is trashed as it should be along with theism. But it takes courage and intense interest to be fully free as I feel I am today after about 12 years of atheism. 

The point I am making is that you have to consider that some become atheists simply because they took time to understand the argument. I am one. 

You made reference to the editor's "desire to invalidate the Bible." Simply put, the Bible invalidates itself. It's interesting that many people have become atheists simply by reading it fully one time.

Your letter had the usual list of difficult questions to be answered in hoping to trip up the non-believer in seeking a defensive position. The theist refers all of them to the "god of the gaps." The lazy mind chooses this course. Got a big question? Throw in the "god of the gaps." It's much easier than to spend the time to seek and attempt to understand scientific answers thus eliminating some of the gaps in knowledge. Just think how far man's knowledge has extended when scientific knowledge was sought rather than further superstition. (Read the Demon-Haunted World  by Carl Sagan.) The happy thought is that as man's knowledge increases religion is falling behind. Not many today in the Western world think thunder is the result of the gods bowling or that he sun goes around the earth. 

"Thus we have no choice but to accept much of our reality on faith..." 

If "faith" means the religious belief without evidence then you are misusing the word within the context. We accept reality for what it is...real. A is A.  Your use of "faith" is to either obscure the discussion or somehow equate religious faith to scientific knowledge. Your conclusion above is demonstrably false. 

Anyways, each of your six questions can be handled scientifically without resorting to the "god of the gap" and people will be led to acceptable answers.

You sound like a reasonable man that would accept that premise. You just haven't been reading the helpful books that exist to answer many of your questions. My argument against theism is that it stifles healthy inquiry. No one in the Bible is ever praised for being intelligent.

"There is, in the scriptures that have been assembled, a recognizable God..." 

Recognizable? That is simply in plain contradiction to your earlier statement. That is a common outcome when trying to defend the indefensible. 

It seems at the conclusion of your letter you realized that what you have written is not going to be very effective. So you then refer to "a basic 'gut' feeling...that provides reason enough to cling onto my faith." I'm sorry, Phil, your feelings are no more persuasive than those of the Muslim, the Mormon, or the Catholic. Why should anyone lean on what your "gut" tells you? Why even should you? It's sad to see that is really all you have in conclusion--a feeling in your gut.  A good question for you is--Where did that come from? I had that gut feeling one time when I was a Christian. After I traced its source I was able to admit the feeling was the result of being manipulated by men. I wasn't born with it. I was simply reacting to plain old subjectiveness--a dangerous course and often fraught with error. Boy! Do I know that! 

Please write again. 

Jim Baldwin

jimmiejazz@peoplepc.com

Editorial note: Bill Fairchild has submitted a lengthy commentary on recent emails.  To read it, click  here.

03/22/08

Hello, I am an ex-member of WCG. I left the church in the summer of 1995. To some degree I was thankful to Joe Tkach Sr. for opening the Pandora's box that revealed to me the destructive nature of the WCG and the hypocrisy of the leadership.

Through friends I had access to the Ambassador Report and other info that exposed the WCG as the scam that it was. The person that I should really be thankful to is Earl Williams. My friends listened to many of his tapes and had advanced knowledge of the changes that where announced in early 1995.

I understand that Mr. Williams forced the hand of Joe Sr. and the doctrinal changes that where announced in 1995 where not to be made until maybe years later.

My admiration of Joe Sr. and Joe Jr. quickly diminished when I realized that their main goal was not to free people from a repressive religious system but to perpetuate it.

I consider myself a free thinker and an agnostic. My friends have basically embraced main stream Christianity. I have been told by one of them that I am in danger of going to hell for having some doubts that God exists. They also have told me that this web site and some that contribute to it are bitter and angry I shouldn't be spending time on it. I wish that they could see what I see but at least they are better off for not being slaves to Armstrongism. Or are they now slaves to mainstream religion and all the harmful beliefs of that system?

[name withheld by request]

In my opinion, anyone who practices religion in any form is probably doing it for the wrong reason; i.e., they think they are supposed to do it, or they labor under the misapprehension that not doing so will cause them  to be damned.  In that sense they are all slaves.  But I suppose it's better to be a slave to the mainstream to a fringe cult.

03/23/08

If you put "Flurry" in the search box at the bottom of the main page, you'll find quite a few articles on the man.  He's a piece of work.

03/24/08

Please don't be mad if I goofed and missed that you answered this question. I honestly tried to find the answer on your FAQ and didn't see it.

I've been reading your site and it's a real breath of fresh air to me. I just married into a family that has 3 members of the United Church of God, the offshoot from the failed WCG. One is my mother in law and she simply will not stop assaulting me with pamphlets written by the late Armstrong and the other day she actually called him an Apostle.

I think she's nuts....but I can't hope to help her see how awful her loyalty to this dead pervert is by attacking him full on.

I am wondering just what exactly it took for your eyes to be opened....what exactly ANY of the people on your site experienced that I might find useful in helping to expose how badly she's been violated and continues to be with this new group. She is REALLY poor and 68 years old, yet she continues to keep this 3 tithe system. It's a burden and it's ridiculous. Any direction you can point me in with this might help immensely.

Thanks for whatever assistance you can provide.

Karla
 

Nobody here is going to get mad at you. I'm glad you took the time to write.

You are in a very tough position. Your mother-in-law isn't going to take your word for it, or anyone else's word for it. She sounds like a "true believer", which means she already knows the truth and everyone else is deceived. Anything you say to her will be considered proof that you are deceived.

I do have one suggestion. When I first became willing to read something that wasn't written by WCG, almost the first thing I read was a book by a man who had once been a very high-ranking minister in WCG. His name was Ernest Martin, and he was well respected even after he left the cult. The book was called The Tithing Fallacy. You can find a link to it on our main web page in the left-hand column. I recommend you get that book, read it yourself, and then see if she will read it. That book proved to me, beyond a doubt, that WCG was only in it for the money. They had us paying 3 tithes, but this book shows that the Bible only requires 1. If she will read it (and that's a BIG if), it may not convince her, but it might plant seeds of doubt.

Good luck, and let me know how it goes.

John B

Reply:

Dear John,

Thanks so much for directing me to this book and the prompt response.

Truth be told, she almost has to read this considering how I have been willing read all she's handed me (and boy did HWA write his tail off during his run! I think I've read it all and a few twice.)

I only became a Christian myself (follower of Christ is more how I'd term my beliefs) a year ago and I was almost immediately sucked into the propaganda of The Good News magazine. I met a guy who was raised WCG and who had family in UCG now, and we wound up married, by and large, because we thought our faith was so similar it must be fate.

Imagine how bizarre it was when I moved 2,400 miles to marry him and THEN learned his family was in a cult. But if God has a purpose here I would say I was sent to help save my husband from being sucked back into the newer version of the old WCG. I began to study my bible, spending hours a day looking at the actual doctrines of UCG and comparing this to scripture. It took me about 3 weeks to amass all the evidence I needed to begin to frame my rebuttal. That was 3 months ago and I've not stopped yet.

This was big bad news for my new mother in law. She initially thought I was a blessing for the family but I think she is starting to think I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing. And we live right next door to her.

Since I started pulling on this thread I've found endless sites dealing with the financial fleecing and doctrinal rip offs of HWA. It's absolutely heartbreaking and I feel sadness and anger over what so many went without during their time with him. Not even a warm fuzzy came out of any of it. It's nothing short of Spiritual terrorism.

I WILL grab this book and check it out first before I hand it over but she is probably going to go all legalese on me.....I have no illusions that if I were to shatter this reality of hers, I in effect will have illuminated that the last 40 years of her life were based on bull dung. That kind of revelation can send some people over the edge.

I most certainly will let you know how this plays out.

Thanks again for the site and for the advice here.

Peace,

Karla

I hope it works out, Karla. Thanks for the additional information.

If you have no objection, I'd like to post your emails at the website. I can remove your name if you wish. Odds are you'll get additional advice from others who have walked in your shoes, in the form of letters to the editor. Situations like yours are one of the reasons we exist, although we don't try to force anything on anyone. We just want to stand as a witness to what has been done and is still happening.

Any chance your mother-in-law would be willing to look at the website? She can learn more than she wants to know, like Armstrong's incest and other crimes.

Reply:

I will take whatever help I can get and if by some chance somebody else gets something out of this that's great. By all means, post away.

Get her to look at the site??? Hmmm, I suppose I might but I don't know how in-depth she'd get and I think the surest way to have her turn and run real fast would be to mention the incest thing too early. I'm hoping the tithing and plagiarism are good places to start.

I am open to using my first name, she'd know it was me based on information I'd given anyhow, if she looks. And I am most certainly not ashamed of what I am doing.

Again, I thank you and look forward to whatever response my pleas draw.

Karla


04/06/08

Thank You very much in forward for explaining this to me, and for the wonderful articles as well.

Greetings, Frans.  My son visited your country just last year.  He loved it there.

I wasn't involved in the Ambassador Report project, so I can't answer you exactly.  What I can tell you is that you can create pdf files from documents or web pages using Adobe Acrobat Professional 6.0 and later.  (I don't think you can do it with the free, downloadable version, however.)  Once you have the Adobe software, you can create pdf files from within Acrobat or you can do it from Windows by using the Print option.  When you use the Print option, you can select which printer you want to use, and Adobe Acrobat will appear on the printer list.  Select it and your document will be converted into a pdf file.  Visit the Adobe website for more information.

04/07/08

Hi there,
 
I wondered if you might be able to put out an info request on the PT site.  I was just Googling a few names of people I knew way back when.  One of the names I searched for is Joe/Joseph Nazarini.  Joe and I were dorm mates in our first year at AC-Pasadena (1971-72), and became very good friends.  Eventually he married Denise Branham, but later it was my understanding that they had divorced.  Several years ago I found out his at-the-time mailing address; he was back in his home town of Youngstown, OH.  I sent him a letter to ask how he was doing, and he sent a brief reply on a postcard, promising to write again, but I heard nothing further from him.
 
Today when I Googled his name, I got one or two sites I'd seen before (a mention of him in an early '80s edition of Ambassador Report, which is where I learned that he and Denise were divorced), but then other very disturbing things came up, on the websites of a couple of local media for the Youngstown area.  It seems that in February 2004, 55-year-old Joseph P. Nazarini, resident of the Youngstown suburb of Boardman, stabbed his wife (interestingly named Denise), age 52, to death.  He stayed with the body overnight, then called the police the next day.  He pleaded not guilty due to insanity.  As of sometime last year, his case was still floundering, partly due to a long process of acquiring mental health information about him from different places, including California.  I don't know whether the trial finally took place or not. 
 
Obviously I'm wondering if this is the Joe Nazarini that I knew; and if so, had he at some point remarried his ex-wife, or was his second wife coincidentally named Denise.  The age at the time of the killing seems right on for both the Joe and Denise that I knew long ago.  So I'm wondering if there's a way that you can put up an info request to your readers.  Someone out there might know of this and could respond; others might have known Joe and/or Denise, and would be interested, as I am, to know if these are the people we knew.  Perhaps someone out there has deeper research sources than I have (or a better way of searching), and would dig for information.
 
Thanks for any help you might be able to lend.  I understand if it's not something you'd be inclined to put on the site.  But since it's (possibly) dealing with folks formerly in the WCG...
 
Best regards,
 
Francis Penkava
 
P.S.  Here are a couple of sites, one breaking the news of the stabbing, the second one being about the very slow pace of getting the case to trial:
 
http://archive.wkbn.com/firstnews/history/2004-02-10/600pm/xindex.htm#116NAZARINI
 
http://www4.vindy.com/content/local_regional/288774210844559.php

Here's hoping some of our readers might have some information.  This will also be posted on the 411 page.

04/13/08

I would need more information to make a judgment, like what were the miracles? Generally speaking, I do not believe in miracles from above, and people have a tendency to interpret events the way they want to (at least I do). I would agree that, if one accepts the concept of a “loving God”, it makes no sense that he would make salvation so difficult that only a few could achieve it. Religious leaders use damnation as a weapon against their flocks to increase their own personal wealth and power, so you are probably closer to the truth than they are.

04/14/08

thanx 4 the prompt reply p t (1) i was going to town & found $100 in me wallet that wasnt there b4  drove straight in not the usual way & was picked up speeding & fined $100!? more remarkable nobody in my remote farmhouse put it there (2) i lost my pension card that night i turned on the idiot box with the remote went 4 coffee & returned 2 find it sitting on the remote  i am not saying someone like say mugabe gets off scot free just that finally no matter how long it takes we will all make it  church history indicates this was the original viewpoint of the church  cheers  i am ken  shem is my son  cheers

What looks like a miracle to you might simply be someone playing a joke on you (in the case of the pension card) or you might be over 50 and can't find your glasses on top of your head (like me).  Otherwise, one might interpret the $100 exchange as a simple matter of natural balance, such as water finding its own level or the market stabilizing after a fluctuation.  Hard to say.  Anyway, great to hear from you. 
 

04/18/08

I'll post your question and see if anyone responds.  In the meantime, you might check out Ambassador Watch and some of the websites linked from there.  Those guys keep a fairly close watch on the activities of the spin-offs, which I don't.

04/21/08

Hi John,

"Purplehymnal" here, I don't know if you were aware or not, but I started a Weinland site in late Jan. of this year. You can find it here:

http://weinlandwatch.wordpress.com/

It has been a startling four months, to say the least. I linked your "Death Sentence" article because I feel it is very close to what teenagers in Weinland's church are feeling and thinking right now, some forty-odd years after the first go-round of this. According to Weinland, the Great Trib. began on April 17th, but all the death and destruction he was predicting has now been moved ahead to the day after Pentecost. Previously in a sermon he had said that he would step down in the destruction did not happen BY Pentecost, now it is AFTER Pentecost. We've all been there before right? It looks as though Weinland might actually believe his own theology however, which is even more disheartening. His April 19th sermon was a real eye-opener, to say the least. I am sure you have read the highlights over on Ambassador Watch.

My point though (I am getting to one LOL) is that a few weeks back, Weinland had made a big deal about how the church's policy on children had changed, and he basically read from the church's web site saying that underage teens were no longer be granted admittance to the church, and elders were supposed to turn them back to their parents.

All well and good right? Well a recent commenter on the blog tells me now that underage members who were baptized prior to this ruling are still members.

Yeah. Big surprise right? And now they are going through all the same motions as the teenagers back in the '60s and '70s did, getting married young and having kids because they won't have the chance to.

(And in the meantime, this Great Tribulation is shaping up to be the quietest on record!) I thought a link to your article would provide some much-needed insight from someone who has BTDT. Thanks.

By the way, for the person who wanted to know what happened to Dankenbring and his "The Holy Days According to Bill" website, looks like he's decided to jump on the false prophet bandwagon along with Weinland and Flurry: He has revamped the site so the first pictures that greet you is the WTC on one side of the page, and Katrina on the other.

Wonder what dates Billy-boy has set for the beginning of the end?

http://www.triumphpro.com/

"Purple Hymnal"

Reply:

So YOU're the Weinland watcher. I saw the link on AW but didn't realize it was you.

Thanks for linking to the PT. Maybe a few people will get their eyes opened. Don't know why I wrote the article when I did, but maybe the timing was good. (Could it be "inspiration"? Hmmm?)

Nah!

I found it interesting that a 5.1 earthquake hit the Midwest on April 18, the day after the trumpet sounded. I'm sure Weinland will capitalize on that!

Hi John,

LOL I don't know about inspired, but the timing is certainly fortunate! :-)

Weinland did indeed captalize on the earthquake (or he tried to) in his sermon 19th April, but Shadows of WCG has a very good article (with US Geological Survey data) rebuffing Weinland's claim that it was a thunder, here:

http://shadowsofwcg.blogspot.com/2008/04/earthquake-was-not-thunder.html

I have been passing the link along to anyone who tries to tell me it fulfills Weinland's prophecies.

Keep on keeping on......Looks like there are a lot of us ex-members debunking Weinland now, from both ends of the belief spectrum. The more the merrier, right??

Thanks again!

-WW/PH/Aggie

04/24/08 

[Commentary Re: Garner Ted On Trial:]

Editor's Note: Dennis Diehl is a practicing massage therapist in South Carolina.  Check the link below for more about massage therapy.

Safe Touch - A Key to Good Mental Health and Relationships

04/29/08 

Hi,

It's been a long time since I visited any of the former member sites, but this past weekend I attended a workshop for cult survivors. It stirred up a lot of stuff, and today I found myself surfing the web again, to see what, if anything is new.

As I was reading the suicide statistics, I came across the listing for a 16-year-old who killed himself in Spokane, WA in 2001. I was puzzled by it, as I was living in Spokane at the time, and didn't remember hearing about it -- perhaps because I had stopped attending Worldwide (or any church) several months before. Then it sank in. It's talking about my son, Jacob!

He did, indeed, take his own life on March 7, 2001. We weren't attending the WCG at that time (or maybe my husband still was, I don't remember).

My husband and I were in the middle of getting divorced. I am a little hurt by the characterization of my son as "emotionally disturbed." He suffered from Tourette Syndrome, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and Asberger Syndrome, which are neurological disorders. He was also extremely intelligent and gifted -- which may or may not have lead to his decision. And yes, we were devastated.

He was born in the church, in Pasadena. He attended Imperial Schools until the middle of the 5th grade, when we moved away after the changes in 1995, when most of the employees were laid off, including my husband.

We home schooled him for 6th grade, then sent him to public school. He had a lot of trouble fitting in through Junior High. Then we discovered something called "Contract School". He was able to do most of his work at home, going in to meet with a teacher a couple of times a week. He was also part of a program that let him enroll in the local community college while still completing high school. At the time of his death at age 16, he was a couple of months away from graduating from both high school and his first two years of college. He got straight A's in all his classes.

Shortly after his death we received a letter from the State of Washington, offering him a full scholarship to continue his education. It still saddens me that he never saw it. He saw himself as a failure, with no hope for a future.

I just thought I'd write to you, and let you know more of the story. I know the person who sent you the information you have now probably meant well, and I'm actually rather touched that someone thought to include him. But I also felt moved to want to set the record straight.

I hope this helps you with your research. If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer them. (Or if you'd like futher proof that I am who I say I am, just ask.) The truth should be known, and not forgotten.

Julie Gallagher (mother of Jacob Roberto)

PS - The entry about Don Weininger is also innaccurate. You have the murder/suicide listed as occurring in 1995. It happened during my freshman year at AC, which was 1996/97. Which means it probably did happen in 1997, rather than being covered up for nearly 2 years. For what it's worth. (He was the minister who counselled me for baptism, btw.)

Thank you for setting the record straight. I don't know who submitted the original information...I was not editor at that time.

I'm terribly sorry for your tragic loss. I can't imagine losing a child, so I won't pretend to know what you have suffered.  Please feel free to write any time.

John B

05/03/08  seeking old friends

attended AC from 1972-1975

dsteg@sbcglobal.net

They say the shortest verse in the Bible is "Jesus wept."  You have now set the record for the shortest letter to the Painful Truth.  Congratulations, and good luck on finding old friends.

05/05/08

 05/09/08

You might find this interesting:

I read your page here. It's kind of funny. I didn't know Gerald Waterhouse sounded like Charles Manson. Actually, I can't remember what Waterhouse sounded like, even though I probably heard him 15 hours total.  There are some Youtubes of Manson. I listened to one short one, and it didn't remind me of Waterhouse, so I don't know.

I didn't grow up in the WW Church of God. I joined when I was 18 or so. I liked the church, but it didn't like me. I remember a few interesting people from there, but seldom hear from them or meet them.

There's no way to get my money back. Just like I can't get it back from the IRS; the other major scam in my life.

Dan
 

You mean the IR-SS?  Yeah, that's a fun one too.  As for Waterhouse and Manson, that's how it sounds to my ear.  Others might not hear the similarity,  It's a matter of personal perception, so don't take it as gospel.  Thanks for writing.

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